234. Halloween Special: Beasts Beyond Belief w/ Michael D. Winkle

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Imagine that this line
represents a time present 1985

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Future Past alternate 1980 Five
alternate.

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To you, me and Einstein.
Welcome travellers.

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I'm Jeremy, I'm your host
tonight, your only host tonight

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on this Halloween special for
2025.

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Like we do every year, we cover
an urban legend.

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Well, you're getting quite the
bonus this year because we're

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not just doing one, we're doing
a whole book's worth.

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And we're going to sit down with
the author today to go over his

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work.
So we are thrilled today to be

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joined by a fascinating voice in
the world of the Strange and

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unexplained, author Michael D
Winkle.

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A researcher and writer with a
long standing interest in the

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mysteries of the natural world.
Michael is known for his work

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spanning science fiction
anthologies and his Co

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authorship of Mothman Evil
Incarnate with cryptozoologist

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Lauren Coleman.
Today he is here to talk about

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his latest deep dive into the
weird and wonderful, a

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meticulously researched
collection of nearly 200 tales

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of cryptids, mythological
creatures and bizarre biological

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discoveries.
Please give a warm welcome to

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the author of the absolutely
captivating new book Beast

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Beyond Belief.
Sneaky werewolves, flying cats

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and accidental apes.
Welcome back to Infinite Rabbit

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Hole.
All right, Mike, how's it going,

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man?
How you doing?

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Doing pretty good now all the
hype is starting to ebb away so

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I have more time to do other
things.

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I'm sorry.
So just to kind of give

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everybody a little bit of a
background, we've tried to

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record this episode twice before
with Jeff and just couldn't get

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it to work.
We were having some Internet

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connectivity issues, so you guys
may go and listen to this

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episode be like, well, why
didn't we get to listen to this

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one live?
Well, that's because I stole

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Michael and I said I'm going to
have them all to myself tonight

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and I'm not going to give Jeff
any of the fun.

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So Mike, I hope that's OK with
you.

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But it seems like we're we're
rolling pretty good right now.

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So far, so far so.
Good, there it is.

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Yep, man, if we can't do it this
way, then I guess I'm going to

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have to try to do the zoom
thing.

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I'm I'm really trying hard not
to do it.

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Yeah, so like.
Yes.

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I have some initial questions
for you.

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I actually have a group of 10
different topics of questions

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for you.
I have a lot of them because I

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am actually a huge fan of this
book.

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It's not very often that I get
to to just talk about a book of

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collections, right.
So you have a, a book that's

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literally a collection of
stories and details regarding

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urban legends, cryptozoological
creatures, mythologies, and just

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like one off situations.
And my favorite example

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specifically of the the latter,
there is the flat it, which

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we'll talk about here in a
little bit.

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I've already told you multiple
times that I I love the flat it.

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I actually have a a stuffed
Flabit coming in the mail here

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soon.
I found a really cool one and

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then he's going to sit up on my
on my bookshelf over here.

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I'm really excited about it.
So you're the reason why and I

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just wanted to say thank you.
Well, I was happy to dig him up

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out of the old newspaper
archives and the Tulsa Tribune

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and.
Yeah.

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And we'll get, we'll get into
that.

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But for now, I, I just want to
start off with some, some

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introductory questions, right?
This way people can get

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introduced to you and understand
a little bit about you and, and

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the origins of your book, right?
So to start, your new book has a

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striking title, right?
Beasts beyond belief, sneaky

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werewolves, flying cats and
accidental apes.

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And for those that are watching
the video, here it is right

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here.
So when you go on to Amazon or

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wherever you buy your books,
this is the cover that you're

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looking for.
It is phenomenal.

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I have a couple of pages tab for
research purposes for for later

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projects.
I will be using his book

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heavily.
But when did you realize you had

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a book length collection of
these incredible tales on your

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hand?
Will I been collecting all these

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stories for well, since the late
60s I suppose.

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And and I was always interested
in animals, so I would notice if

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something had to do with an
animal.

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I mean, besides, you know,
obviously the cryptids, which

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are strange animals not
recognized by science, but

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people reported the ghost
animals and especially dogs and

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and animals seem to have bad
encounters often with the

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paranormal, just like human
beings, like they just

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accumulated with everything
else.

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And I started picking them out
and putting them together.

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I noticed little things like
boy, these cat ghosts are a lot

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stranger than most of the normal
ghost stories you hear about.

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They're really it really is.
Speaking of just while we're on

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the topic of cat ghosts, there
was one story that you included.

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Now, forgive me, I haven't read
your book in probably over a

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month now.
It's been a minute, but there

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was a story in South America,
somewhere in South America,

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correct, Or Latin America,
somewhere in that area regarding

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a flying cat.
You want to talk about that one

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a little bit?
See, the main flying cat story I

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can think of was actually in the
South Pacific on a small island.

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Maybe that may be OK.
You're right, it was, it was one

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of the Malaysian islands, right?
Yeah, you see, of course I've

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forgotten the name of the island
already, but it was near Tahiti

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because the main person met the
Queen of Tahiti at one point.

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Yes.
In fact, he flipped through this

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book and find it in a second if.
It's it was, it was, yeah, it

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was, it was interesting.
But because we've we've covered

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phantom black dogs before on
this show and it had a very

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phantom black dog esque kind of
detail at the end of it.

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So the researcher ended up
coming across one of them with a

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with a buddy of his in his
bungalow on the patio.

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And then I think it was the next
day when the locals came running

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up and asked them to come over
to the beach.

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Is that jogging?
Jogging the memory a little?

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Bit yeah, the island's name was
Mango Rivo, which isn't that

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famous, but again, it's near
Tahiti so far but yes this

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writer he was an author as well
I mean a an artist as well and

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even one of his paintings is in
the Smithsonian, I believe.

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And, and he wanted to come to
the island to learn all the

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customs and folklore and
legends.

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And the people there told him
that the spirits of the island

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liked him.
And they gave him a name that

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meant to like the friend of the
spirits.

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And this friend of his who's
also an American, was very

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materialistic.
And he had originally come to

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the island to like build
plantations and stuff.

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And that failed.
And he just, he married a local

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girl, just settled down.
And his reason for not wanting

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to believe any of this
supernatural stuff is because he

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was afraid he would just become
totally native and like no

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longer a technical person,
technological person of the 20th

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century.
So sort of like a two different

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types of personalities running
into things.

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Yeah, on the on the island of of
Mangareva, they called one of

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their spirits their to Papaos.
And there there was a particular

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name that they they derived from
that title for the the gentleman

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with the last name Eskridge.
It was Fethi T Tuba.

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It's very interesting because
the the flying cat was very odd

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and it there were multiple
aspects of the paranormal that

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accompanied it.
It it was that the this flying

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cat was kind of curled up in a
in a ball floating over his

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friend's head.
That's how his friend initially

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discovered this thing and then
they both saw like this while

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they were out at that patio and
his friend's bungalow, they saw

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this chalk outline man coming
out of his like tool shed or

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something like a garden shed.
Separate kitchen is what they

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have down there.
Yes, the separate kitchen.

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I mean, if you thought of a
flying cat, you might think of

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one with wings flying around.
But the description was

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certainly stood out when I was
reading this book and they said

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the flying cats looked like they
were just lying somewhere and

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curled up by a fire.
I've actually seen wax candles

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or decorative figures that are
just like that.

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And the hikes been around like a
Frisbee as they were going by

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and going up into the trees.
And.

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And there was the the
materialistic fellow who saw it

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first and he just couldn't stand
it anymore.

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He had to tell his friend Mr.
Erstein.

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And so I think they both saw it
eventually or as well as the

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talk outline man.
Yeah.

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And they all I could do is tell
what they saw.

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And I've heard someone suggest
that it it was just a bat that

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flew by.
They saw with a baby and they

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saw a baby curled up with the
mother bat and saw the head of

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the baby bat, thought it was a
cat curled up.

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And of course, I argue the
people who are living for years

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on the South Sea Island, I don't
know what a bat looks like

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because that's the first one of
the first living creatures that

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can reach an island along with
the palm trees or for the plants

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there's.
So the we'll dive, we'll take a

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step off the islands here.
We'll, we'll kind of just cover

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a a broader range of topics
here.

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The book covers a huge range
too, from well known cryptids

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like Bigfoot to much more
obscure local legends.

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How did you go about deciding
which of these creatures made

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the the cut for the book?
Well the the thing was mostly

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animals so it wasn't just
cryptids but the animal ghosts

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and the just odd scientific
things like trying to clone a

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woolly mammoth nowadays and
touching upon the seal cunt

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which we know exists but there
were some odd details about its

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discovery.
Basically anything animal

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related.
If I could make it animal enough

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like AI think Bigfoot just
barely rates as an animal.

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It's more like a hairy humanoid
so.

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And of course, I had a lot of
book to fill, so I just kept

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spreading out.
And yes.

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You did.
Anything seemed bizarre or odd

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or having to do with an animals.
That's why I like the word

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Fortian after Charles Fort more
than paranormal or anything else

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because that that always covers
everything because Fort was

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interested in strange artifacts
and objects falling out of the

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sky and as well as psychic
powers and monsters and

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disappearances.
So anything under that umbrella

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it.
Was kind of a Jack of all trade.

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It had to do with animals.
I went toward it.

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Yeah, he was, he was great.
I mean, he he loved unknown.

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Like I wouldn't say unknown, not
completely understand branches

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of science as well.
So like he was, he was big in

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the quantum physics and, and
radio signals and, and a lot of

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the cool things were back in the
day when he was alive wasn't

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very well known.
I mean, we still don't really

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know quantum physics that well.
We have a much better grasp on

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radio technology now, you know,
with the ultra high frequency,

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very high frequency and then all
the low frequency waves.

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But back then that was very
mysterious to him and he really

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was a literal Jack of all trades
when it came to the world of the

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unknown, mysterious and and
frankly the Fortian, which is

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great.
But you've done an incredible

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amount of research on this book.
Can you walk us through your

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process for researching, let's
say like the accidental ape or

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vampire cat?
And are you consulting classic

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cryptozoological texts, obscure
local folklore, or are using

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some sort of different source
for all your material?

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Well, it seems like books,
especially that I bought when I

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was a kid in 60s and 70s, are
now very obscured, unusual, but

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I still have them.
And the accidental 8, for

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instance, was in Phantasms of
the Living, which is a enormous

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book published in the 1880s by
the Society for Cyclical

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Research.
And most of it are glimpses or

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like telepathic foresights or
ordinary glimpses of people who

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weren't there at the time or
just ordinary ghosts.

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But that one stood out as very
strange and bizarre with this

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ape like creature that was just
a figure in the story suddenly

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sort of forming into existence
of some sort.

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So I said what?
That's sort of stands out to me,

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so I'll put that in the book.
Very good.

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00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,800
That's, that's great.
And I I see that you have a a

228
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,160
collection of books there that
makes mine look pitiful.

229
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,440
It's probably getting close to
4000.

230
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,840
I'm jealous, might have to print
it.

231
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,880
That is awesome.
That's awesome.

232
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,960
I would.
I would be there all day.

233
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,240
I'd probably spend a weekend
back there and still have things

234
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,480
I wanted to look at.
And there were like little kids

235
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:15,720
books from like the Scholastic
Book Company that I'd send off

236
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,920
for when I was a little kid in
grade school because they come

237
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,480
out once a month, their little
catalog of books, and you can

238
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,840
put some titles there and get
them for like 60 or $0.75.

239
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,720
I'm still looking for trying to
find the origins of some of the

240
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,760
stories and those after 55 or 60
years and.

241
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,600
Oh yeah, oof.
Finally, track downs them.

242
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,320
A lot are just accidental.
Like, I'll buy a oh, here's a

243
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,360
famous old book.
There's that story, The hideous

244
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,280
glowing maggot of Doom.
Yes, I've been looking for that

245
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,440
for 50 years.
Hideous glowing magnet Maggot of

246
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:57,600
doom.
I love it.

247
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,040
Should put that in there.
That is awesome.

248
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,200
Oh, maybe there if there's a
second book in there.

249
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,400
No problem.
But.

250
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,720
There you go man, I like it.
Surname Bernard Hurwood, I think

251
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,400
is his name.
He wrote a lot of little books

252
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,920
for kids that seem kind of
strange these days, books about

253
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,440
werewolves and monsters and
serial killers, like for 3rd

254
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,800
grade.
And there were a lot of really

255
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,800
monsters and ghost stories in
those books that were supposedly

256
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,560
true and he would just present
them and that's it and not tell

257
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:32,960
where he got them from or
anywhere.

258
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,880
And it was, I feel it why you do
need to hunt down the real, the

259
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,560
original stories if I could find
them and I've heard.

260
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,080
Well, good luck.
That'd be interesting.

261
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:45,080
Several people mention I've
asked, you know, on throughout

262
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,880
the Internet and about some of
these stories and their opinion

263
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,200
was that he probably just made
them up because they're only

264
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,280
like a page long and they're for
3rd or 4th graders for this

265
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,560
little paperback.
And surprisingly, he didn't.

266
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,480
But he gave no clue as to where
he got them.

267
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,760
Well, that's interesting for
sure.

268
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,720
Well, I'll be be looking forward
to your sources in in your next

269
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,840
book to see where you got to dig
up that information from.

270
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,480
I'll love it.
I'm also the sort of personal

271
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:19,840
buy a, a new book and I on
something that's been done

272
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,400
before, like Bigfoot or
something.

273
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:22,960
And I'll say, where did he get
these stories?

274
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,080
And I'll look, I'll go to the
bibliography and see where he

275
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,440
got everything.
And I'll go to those books if I

276
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,320
can find them and look at their
big blog, or at least see where

277
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,320
the.
Author, I'm the same way.

278
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,240
I am the exact same way.
I've spent a lot of time in your

279
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,480
big biography.
You.

280
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,880
You put them, I believe.
I believe you had them at the

281
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,200
end of each chapter, right?
Yes, you.

282
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,600
Easier to keep them together
that way.

283
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,160
I like it.
I like it.

284
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,720
It's a good format, very good.
So how did you get into the the

285
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,040
love of the mysterious creatures
and and the stories behind them?

286
00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,840
Where did where did Mr. Winkle
get his affinity for this

287
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,840
material?
Always like the monster and

288
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,560
ghost stories and on TV.
And I'll often say that my

289
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,880
earliest memory is being plopped
down in front of ATV when I was

290
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,920
probably like barely three years
old and and the all the aunts

291
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,480
and uncles were stepping around
and talking like giants and the

292
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,440
TV itself seemed to be as big as
a barn to me.

293
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,160
My memory is I could barely
stand up then, but they were on

294
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,200
that today.
They were playing Rodin the

295
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,800
flying monster, and I thought it
was the greatest thing in the

296
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,720
world, seeing this pterodactyl
fly around and knock down

297
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,320
buildings and attack.
That's awesome.

298
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,520
And well, just anything comic
books, those Scholastic books

299
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,240
and stories in the newspaper.
If they were weird and had

300
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,240
monsters in them, I'd read them
or watch them.

301
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:54,640
But something really amazing
happened when I was about 907 or

302
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,960
8 and the Gulf Oil company got
the gas stations that I don't

303
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,640
think around anymore.
They started putting out these

304
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,200
monthly or quarterly Disney
magazines having to do with the

305
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,000
Disney movies and TV shows.
And well, I like those too.

306
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,960
So I coerced my father into
stopping at Gulf and buying them

307
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,360
every couple of months.
He didn't want to because he

308
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,760
said they overcharge all their
stuff, which is strange because

309
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,920
he was the head accountant for
Gulf Industries.

310
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,080
Well, he would, he would know.
But I got a hold of one.

311
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,160
It was a Halloween issue and it
was about famous ghosts of the

312
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,200
United States.
And I, I was reading this

313
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,320
article and they were treating
them like they were true.

314
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,400
And they mentioned that people
sort of the people working on

315
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,400
the magazines, what their
experiences were and how

316
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:49,760
they're, how one of their
grandmothers saw a man who was

317
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,720
shooting down the street as if
riding a bike.

318
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,000
But there's only the top half of
him.

319
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:55,840
They had a nice little picture
with that.

320
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,720
Oh man.
Went in front of their horse and

321
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,200
buggy because that was a long
time ago, but they had a nice

322
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,640
draw.
This person shooting along,

323
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,840
floating about 3 feet off the
ground with only for only from

324
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,000
the waist up.
There's nothing else.

325
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,240
And that really freaked me out
that I had no idea up to that

326
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,000
point that people actually
claimed to have seen ghosts.

327
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,800
So that was a major revelation.
So from then on.

328
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,280
Nice.
So you just kind of kind of got

329
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:23,760
you hook line sinker there then,
huh?

330
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,800
It's only been so happy so that
I actually got to hold that a

331
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,120
copy of that very magazine.
So I have it now.

332
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,800
That's cool.
That's that's nice.

333
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,240
Little bit of an assaultier
right there.

334
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,240
Have you ever had a sighting for
yourself?

335
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,480
I've had a lot of things that
could, that might be, it might

336
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,200
not be.
Couple years ago I got an

337
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,560
excellent book.
It was called Disembodied

338
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,840
Voices, which studied the
phenomenon of people hearing

339
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,520
voices calling their name or
talking from the woods or

340
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,360
someplace.
And this person counted one of

341
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,480
these scary entities as a guy
who went out into his backyard

342
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,600
and heard someone.
There was supposed to be no one

343
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,840
around for miles and heard
someone whistling the Woody

344
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,640
Woodpecker song.
And I said, well, if the Woody

345
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,520
Woodpecker song counts and what
happened to me counts, that's

346
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,520
when I was about maybe 5 or 6
and my grandmother in Eufaula,

347
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,440
OK, went out to visit some
friend of hers way out in the

348
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,520
country.
And I was too shy to go in and

349
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,320
meet the people.
So I was stayed in the front

350
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,880
yard where all these.
Chickens, their little chicks

351
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,880
were running around.
I wanted to chase the chicks and

352
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,080
hold them and made me take one
with me.

353
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,000
So I was running, chasing these
chicks and they seem to be

354
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,640
almost leading me out toward the
road and to the dirt Rd. way out

355
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,640
here in the country.
And I actually got out to the

356
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,640
dirt road and there weren't that
many trees, but I you could see

357
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:48,880
for miles, mostly cow pastures
and stuff, and just a few pine

358
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,720
trees.
And suddenly I heard this loud,

359
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,560
crazy screeching laugh and that
seemed quite near.

360
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,160
But there is nothing to see and
no place to hide.

361
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,680
And if you ever heard of the
Scarecrow of Romney Marsh from

362
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,200
Fall, also from Walt Disney,
there had a song that went with

363
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,520
it.
It was a A record.

364
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,280
And at the end, there's this
incredibly loud, frightening

365
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,520
screech of a laugh, and that was
almost the same thing.

366
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,080
And after still looking around,
there's only some fence posts

367
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,280
and cow pastures and trees.
I was sure the scarecrow was

368
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,400
after me.
So I ran over to the house and I

369
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,120
jumped under the front porch and
hid there in the mud until my

370
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:29,440
grandmother was ready to go
home.

371
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,000
So that was about the freakiest
thing that ever happened to me.

372
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,360
I say, I say it's cool because
I, I, I've, I had something cool

373
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:40,200
as a kid.
Well, looking back on it, it's

374
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,160
cool now, but when you're a kid,
it's not.

375
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,600
But it's also, you know,
something that really was my my

376
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,840
vector into loving this stuff as
well.

377
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,400
So it's always cool to hear
other people's stories.

378
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,560
If you had to pick just one
creature from the book that

379
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,040
still gives you pause, a story
that you truly can't rationally

380
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:05,600
explain, which one would it be?
It's.

381
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:11,200
C Well, rashly explain means I
I'm sure it happened and somehow

382
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,120
goes against what we know of
science and so on.

383
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,960
It's hard to pick one.
Yeah.

384
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,080
Let's see what I'd have to.
Victory.

385
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,720
What do you I'll tell you one of
my favorites, One of my

386
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:30,240
favorites from your book is the
is the, the Guinea pigs, those

387
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,960
things.
That is such a cool story.

388
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,960
The hamster was a hamster.
I believe the hamster just

389
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,760
appeared near Aleppo in.
The Near East.

390
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:44,520
Very, very interesting topic.
And I tried looking up more

391
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,840
information on it and it seems
like you got a pretty decent

392
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,200
chunk of information for what's
out there.

393
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,840
It's it's pretty much complete
in your book.

394
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,200
And for those that are wondering
what I'm talking about, there is

395
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,160
this city, right City Aleppo.
I think it's in Turkey, I'm not

396
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,960
sure.
It's at the eastern end of the

397
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,240
Mediterranean, I believe, near
the shore.

398
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:14,000
Well, there is there is stories
or examples of people seeing

399
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,800
wild golden hamsters in the city
and they only have these

400
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,840
encounters with these golden
hamsters every.

401
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,760
I can't remember exactly what
the what the time frame was, but

402
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,440
it seemed to be regular
intervals.

403
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,800
There you go.
They're about 30.

404
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:34,800
So a golden hamster it doesn't
exist in the wild right outside

405
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,640
of this this one city.
It's.

406
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,640
Around this one.
And the city it's?

407
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,080
And the hills around.
It and the city itself only.

408
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,880
Yeah, and they only see it in
the wild every 30 years or so,

409
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,720
which then you bring up the idea
of, of a John Keel's windows

410
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:59,520
theory, which is basically the
theory that parallel worlds or a

411
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,600
world parallel to ours comes
into contact with ours, creating

412
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:09,640
a sort of a window into or as I
I guess like the, the modern

413
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,800
term for it would be like a
portal right where the, the, the

414
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:20,040
2.
That opens briefly and I

415
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,360
suggested the really small
portable hamsters running

416
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,200
through for the for the little.
Hamsters, right.

417
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,680
So the the theory that that's
kind of talked about regarding

418
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,760
erroneous hamsters is that they
could potentially be from one of

419
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,440
these parallel worlds.
And coming over to ours during,

420
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,760
you know, one of these regularly
intervaled events described by

421
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:52,920
John Keel, where the membranes
of the two universes come in

422
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,320
contact with each other,
creating a window roughly every

423
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,200
30 years, which is absolutely
phenomenal.

424
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,880
I love that.
I love that so much.

425
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,080
Accurately even different than
other supposed creatures coming

426
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,240
through.
Because I'm sure golden hamsters

427
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,680
are one of the most common pets
in the world and all of them are

428
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,480
descended from one family, 1
mother and its children that was

429
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:22,200
caught about 1930 or so and
others that have been caught

430
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,640
since have.
It's only happened like few

431
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,920
other times in history, but
that's such AI mean they could

432
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:31,600
probably take over the world if
they were left untreated,

433
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,240
unchecked and kept multiplying.
Sure they would.

434
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,840
But that's such a common animal
and pet might have a bizarre

435
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,840
origin.
This seemed pretty extra

436
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,320
interesting.
And that's another story from I

437
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,480
read this book about pets about
1968 or so and just had an aside

438
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,400
about how all the all these
golden hamsters and all the pet

439
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,000
stores of the world came with
this one little family that and

440
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,960
it's never been seen before
since.

441
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,400
That is so cool.
That's it really is.

442
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,360
It makes you think really does
like they say that there's a lot

443
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,120
of theories about Loch Ness
sponsor Nessie being one of

444
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:10,960
these window or parallel world
creatures to where the

445
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,560
phenomenon just occurs at a much
higher rate than 30 years, like

446
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,200
the one in Aleppo.
I don't know.

447
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,760
It's it's a very, very
interesting theory and I've

448
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:26,040
talked about John Keel so many
times here on this podcast and I

449
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,240
can't recommend it enough to my
listeners.

450
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,760
You really need to go and step
out and, and check out John

451
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,480
Keel.
If you haven't read all of his

452
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,280
work yet, you, you really need
to.

453
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,480
I mean, there's, there's some
really obscure stuff that

454
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,280
probably could be skipped over.
But I mean, everything from judo

455
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,960
on really is just amazing,
amazing, amazing stuff.

456
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:54,120
Just so just to go along on his
journey of, of discovering his

457
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,840
love for this stuff and
discovering that that there's

458
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,840
things out there that we can't
explain is fascinating.

459
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:02,520
And to hear some of those
theories.

460
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,800
I mean, I don't know if we'll
ever have a mind like John Keel

461
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,400
again.
I hope, you know, I hope I'm

462
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,280
wrong, but it would be really
cool for somebody to get out

463
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,440
there and do the John Keel thing
like he did.

464
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,040
Well, I have a project that's
been going on for 50 years or so

465
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,320
and partly inspired by a dream I
had.

466
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,920
The dream was when I was 1011
years old, I found Strange

467
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,360
Creatures from Time and Space,
which is one of his books, and I

468
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:31,560
dreamt, yeah.
And I'm sure you have it back

469
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:32,400
there.
I do.

470
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,080
And I I dreamt that I'd found
the book and it was the expanded

471
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,160
edition of Strange Creatures.
I even remember what the cover

472
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,520
looked like.
It was like an old timey Old

473
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,080
West of a passenger train going
across a trestle.

474
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,680
And standing in the Canyon of
this trestle was a Tyrannosaurus

475
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,000
Rex.
It was as high as the threshold

476
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,200
and the train and looking at us
as if we were about to attack.

477
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,840
And I was, I'm amazed to find
this and I but then I woke up

478
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,160
and then I decided it was my
life's work was going to be

479
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,800
finding every reference in that
book and expanding it and

480
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,160
putting the whole thing into one
compendium.

481
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,640
And I was almost ready to will
not publish it, but to print out

482
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:20,200
my own version of it about 2020.
And then I realized I had missed

483
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,920
something very important.
They had the flying saucer

484
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,720
review was starting to put the
cop their old issues online and

485
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,080
I started flipping through some
of them.

486
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:35,760
I said, well, there's like 30 or
40 reports that Keel took

487
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,280
straight from the Flying Saucer
review.

488
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,000
So I'm going to have to look at
all those now.

489
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,120
Yeah.
That was the first time I've

490
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,520
ever seen a copy of Flying
Saucer Review.

491
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,440
That's so cool.
I I'll have to look up some of

492
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,640
those too.
I didn't know that they were

493
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:49,720
online.
That's really.

494
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,040
Well, maybe for the 60th
anniversary I'll have it done.

495
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,120
Let's say let's go with this
question.

496
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,560
What is the most bizarre or
humorous creature you

497
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:01,880
encountered during your
research?

498
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,880
Most bizarre The ordinary cats
certainly got weird, like the

499
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,240
cat with the detachable head.
That was right and the.

500
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,920
Yes, that was.
The curled up asleep cats that

501
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,920
are flying around is also pretty
strange.

502
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,680
And the Willington mill cat that
would first came up like a

503
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,760
regular cat until the guy kicked
it and it came back jumping like

504
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,600
a Bunny rabbit.
He kicked it again and then then

505
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,560
it came back the size of a tiger
and it was time for him to go.

506
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,200
And somebody else saw the cat at
the mill sliding around like a

507
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,320
snake on the ground, not using
its legs.

508
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,440
So those are some very odd cats.
But As for the creatures

509
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,280
themselves, oh, there's a lot of
bizarre creatures.

510
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,800
It's hard to.
Very much.

511
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,040
Hard to pick from all of them,
but.

512
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,920
So your book features cryptids
that are essentially modern

513
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,720
folklore alongside creatures
with deep mythological roots

514
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,840
like werewolf's.
What difference did you notice

515
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,680
in how these older classical
myths are treated versus newer

516
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,360
modern myths or more?
Well, by modern people, of

517
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,280
course, they're the older of the
myth, the more obviously it must

518
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,640
be fictional or mythological,
closer to reality.

519
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,480
They tried to make it like urban
legends, more local and try and

520
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,240
make it sound more believable
because a lot of people don't

521
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,800
believe in these monsters or
ghosts or anything when they

522
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,680
take people out to try and scare
them on lovers lanes.

523
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,240
So they have to try and make it
sound a little more but not much

524
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,560
more believable.
But those still convince people

525
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,240
there's a goat man out there or
something.

526
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,680
Go looking for it.
I'm not sure how much the people

527
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,960
of ancient times believed in
their own mythological

528
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,480
creatures.
Like they thought there were was

529
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,000
a gorgon out there somewhere and
were afraid of it.

530
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,840
Medieval legends are different
because most of those were

531
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,640
believed in at some point.
And and of course, so I've found

532
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,200
people who absolutely did not
believe me when I told them that

533
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,280
these urban legends were false.
Even when I brought in like Jan

534
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,800
Harold Brunwald's books on urban
legends and show them the story

535
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,080
they were passing around the
workplace.

536
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,680
And they had that it had been
told here there in Utah and like

537
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,720
California and New York and was
debunked false.

538
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,720
And she said, I remember that
this actually happened over in

539
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,280
Broken Arrow and she started
talking to her Co worker just

540
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,120
telling off this absolutely true
story that was in this book.

541
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,000
And it said this is fake.
Fake.

542
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,640
So there are people who really
take them to heart, I guess.

543
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,160
Oh.
Yes.

544
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,360
Oh yes, definitely.
So anybody wants to see good

545
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,760
examples of them, just go to
Facebook.

546
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,960
There's the Facebook groups are
full of them.

547
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,160
So let's go to a more cultural
question.

548
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,960
Do you see a common
psychological need or cultural

549
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,040
anxiety reflected in the types
of monsters that tend to appear

550
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,160
in different regions or at
different times in history?

551
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,000
Are you seeing any correlation?
Well, this seem like there's a

552
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,560
deep set need for certain
monsters or creatures or

553
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,200
supernatural beings because they
appear in all cultures.

554
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,560
I mean like the wild men of
Europe and of course the Yeti of

555
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,960
the Himalayas and hairy wild men
from almost every continent.

556
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,400
And things that you wouldn't
expect, like mysterious black

557
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,160
Panthers that are reported
almost everywhere nowadays.

558
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,280
And the people will always
preface that instead of saying I

559
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,920
saw Bigfoot, they'll have to
give this little preface saying,

560
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,960
I know there, there's not
supposed to be large cats around

561
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,880
here.
But I, we saw this Black Panther

562
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,760
the other day running across our
farm.

563
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,400
And, and the fact that they
would always point out, say the

564
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,280
words Black Panther instead of
just a leopard or a African lion

565
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,280
or something like that is always
interesting because since I've

566
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,760
explained before, I am sure in
the book that there's no such

567
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,080
species as Black Panther.
They're occasional, I guess,

568
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,000
mutations of leopards and
Jaguars.

569
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,720
Yeah, Melanistic.
And.

570
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,000
That.
Is either none or just one

571
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,520
melanistic cougar, which is
found in the United States, ever

572
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,000
recorded?
So probably wouldn't be that.

573
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,920
So that seems to be something
independent that actually exists

574
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,240
and people have seen it.
But there are all sorts of

575
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,960
legends and ghost stories that
seem to appear in almost every

576
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,680
region of the earth.
So they're both cultural and

577
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,360
maybe real at the same time.
Like I've, I've actually, I've

578
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,200
heard people, you know, try to
figure out the cultural or

579
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,400
mythological or psychological
value of such and such a

580
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,520
creature and what it plays in
the society and how, how it

581
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,360
serves like something for the
hero to attack or to scare

582
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,000
children from dangerous places.
But I would say one of that

583
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,960
actually exists exists and it
doesn't really care what value

584
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,840
it has to your society or
stories.

585
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:06,240
And it's just they are doing its
thing and people see so, but

586
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,280
somehow they'll accept it into
their stories and culture and

587
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,239
add stories around it so.
Let's take a trip outside of the

588
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,520
book for a minute due to your
involvement in the book Mothman

589
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,880
Evil Incarnate with
cryptozoologist legend Lauren

590
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,960
Coleman.
How does the level of

591
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,719
documentation and witness
testimony for the Mothman of

592
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,040
relatively modern phenomenon
compared to the historical

593
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:34,520
accounts of older creatures like
your creature that you included

594
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,840
in your book of the Chuck local
monster?

595
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,840
When Moffin finally got popular
in the 70s, a lot of the

596
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,360
eyewitnesses were still alive
and well.

597
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,760
They've gone back and I've seen,
I think there's books like

598
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,159
Mothman Behind the Red Eyes from
people who actually lived in the

599
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:56,639
area and they've gone back then
there's those.

600
00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,840
Well, those were interesting
because they have the actual hat

601
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,240
pictures of the actual
handwritten notes and the

602
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:07,120
drawings of the original
witnesses, and they agree with

603
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,480
like John Keel's reports from
the 1970.

604
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,560
And even Gray Barker, who is
notorious for altering things,

605
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560
was pretty close to.
Very notorious.

606
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,400
Was actually pretty close to
what they described in their

607
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,120
original notes of the witnesses.
We'll just just seeing

608
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,640
photographs of the actual areas
was always interesting to me

609
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,080
because this is like something
my daddy would have told me when

610
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,040
I was a little baby who's trying
to get me to go to sleep and

611
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,720
suddenly there isn't reality.
There's actual photographs of

612
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:41,800
the place and it's astounding.
It's like the little cricket who

613
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,280
got lost the actual picture
because that was a story he'd

614
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,400
like to tell me all the time.
And of course, they find the

615
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,200
archives of the old newspapers
from Point Pleasant, which may

616
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,120
not even exist anymore except
when people cut them out and put

617
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,600
them in their scrapbooks, and
those have been saved.

618
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,400
So it's it certainly gives a
feeling of reality to these

619
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,960
stories I've heard for decades.
But we're just a story in the

620
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,080
book basically for me.
Very cool.

621
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,800
Let's go with Well, if you could
send a well funded international

622
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:20,200
research team to one location to
defend the definitively prove

623
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,480
the existence of one creature in
your book, which creature would

624
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,000
it be and where would you send
them?

625
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,160
That's another interesting
thing, because if there are such

626
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,600
things as the window theory,
they may not be there all the

627
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,560
time to be found.
Very true.

628
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,640
I I sort of suspect that some of
the cryptids from South America

629
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,720
and Central Africa may be
physically there most of the

630
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:48,240
time, possibly something like a.
Like a Mckelly and Bebe.

631
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:49,840
Yeah.
Oh, it's like the idea of a

632
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,760
giant ground sloth still being
alive in the Amazon.

633
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,720
Oh, several creatures could be
alive in the Amazon that we

634
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,200
don't know about that are quite
spectacular.

635
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,880
The giant ground sloth.
That's the Mapaguari, right?

636
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:07,720
That's one of the monsters they
claim might be it.

637
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:13,000
And of course they're, we know
that they found the this cave

638
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,040
that had mummified giant sloths
in it, like the skin was still

639
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,360
covered with fur and still
pliable like leather instead of

640
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,680
being fossilized.
So that would be in the

641
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,000
Patagonian region, I believe, of
Argentina.

642
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,720
Very southern.
So I would probably sit as an

643
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:33,360
expedition somewhere you have
the Amazon or Patagonia and

644
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,720
looking for, well, groundless
loss or the Sasquatch like

645
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:39,640
creatures that like to RIP up
our cattle.

646
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,600
Well then you could probably
probably put a big net in the

647
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,840
river Amazon River and catch
something you've never seen

648
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,680
before.
That's probably true too.

649
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:52,120
Yeah, that's a good point.
So are you in belief that these

650
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,560
creatures are out there?
Well.

651
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,120
Like like Charles Ford himself,
I don't like to use the word

652
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,560
believe because it applies.
I accept something without any

653
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,800
evidence but the fact that.
Good.

654
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,960
People generations apart
reportsing the same thing and

655
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,280
they there are people who in a
pre Internet age at least, have

656
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,440
probably never heard never heard
of anybody else seeing it or

657
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,400
ever write a book on the subject
or and they have the same sort

658
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,600
of details.
It's like any other scientific

659
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,040
phenomenon that is built up on
observations.

660
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:31,160
So I tend to think there is
something there, but the way

661
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,680
these things exist, they may be
there all the time when you want

662
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:36,240
to go out there and see them or
catch them.

663
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,560
And I think there is definitely
a phenomenon that people

664
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,440
experience, but whether it's an
actual physical creature or not,

665
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,560
I couldn't really tell you.
Good stance to have see here

666
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:49,840
reading through a man eating
through them.

667
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,440
I have one that that kind of
just popped up.

668
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:57,360
I didn't have a question set for
this, but I wanted to talk about

669
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:05,120
specifically the chapter on the
dinosaurs in the western states.

670
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,440
I believe it was New Mexico.
I could be wrong there.

671
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,720
Let me open up your book here.
You know what I'm referring to.

672
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,680
Certainly that was, I was really
excited about those because it

673
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,680
almost looked like that dream
picture on the cover of the book

674
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,520
I I dreamed about.
So I want to see dinosaurs in

675
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,600
the American West.
Come on, they're out there

676
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,200
somewhere.
You can report them somewhere.

677
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,720
Yeah, there was, there's this
one area where there were

678
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:37,480
dinosaurs being seen, I think it
was three times by the same

679
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,640
person.
But they also had other people

680
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,520
witness them with with them.
Especially there was one in a

681
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,760
car.
There was a an event that where

682
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,680
the the person witnessed one of
these dinosaurs in a car with

683
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,240
with somebody else.
Forget the woman's name.

684
00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:57,840
She was.
Absolutely.

685
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,400
Old by that time, but she was
telling about several encounters

686
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,920
since the 1930s with what
appeared to be dinosaur like

687
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:10,680
creatures and it was published
in a like a Sunday paper in

688
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,080
Colorado or New Mexico, I'm not
sure which I don't forget don't

689
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,680
remember and it was that was
repeated in the Fortian times

690
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,680
about 1982 and for a long time
it was just a couple of

691
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,960
paragraphs but.
This one researcher haunted her

692
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,520
down and it sounds like it he
dragged her all over the Western

693
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,040
states find to find these other
witnesses and chase down the

694
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,400
stories of the the incident when
she was in the car with somebody

695
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,560
else seeing one that happened
after her letter had been

696
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:47,520
printed in 1980, about 1978 or
so and I I noticed one.

697
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,880
Chapter is titled Colorado
Raptors.

698
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,840
The chapter is titled Colorado
Raptors.

699
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,000
And it is it's, it's
fascinating.

700
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:05,920
It even goes into like the, the
correlation between the, the

701
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,840
stories with the Apache Moon
cow, which is fascinating.

702
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,920
And if they had stories of these
things, you know it.

703
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,960
Well, I thought we could get
away with it this time, but.

704
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,520
Let's go ahead and yeah, let's
go ahead and wrap it up.

705
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,480
I got through most of my
questions for you.

706
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,520
I feel like that that went
really well.

707
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,680
I'll get it all edited and put
it out for Halloween.

708
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:40,240
So before we log off for the for
the night, why don't you go

709
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:43,040
ahead and let everybody know
where they can find you.

710
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:48,000
Your socials website, your
Patreon, everything.

711
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:51,120
Let's let's tell the listeners
of the Infinite Rival where they

712
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,560
can find Michael Dane Winkle.
Well, I've been working to

713
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,280
improve all that.
That's sort of in a in a flux at

714
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,080
the moment.
But right now my I can't even

715
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,960
affect my website, but it's it's
there at the it's called, it's

716
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,640
called fantasy world
project.com.

717
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,200
That's just one word was mostly
just what it says.

718
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:18,080
I was documenting this fantasy
world that I write stories about

719
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,560
as it was happening.
So that's the project and and

720
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,080
Patreon.
I'm also under fantasy world

721
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,400
project, I believe.
But if you go on and go in and

722
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,520
type in Michael Dane Winkle, I'm
sure it'll show up.

723
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:40,840
And I don't even remember a lot
of the call numbers of like my

724
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,400
let's see you and my publishers
has been saying get on more

725
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,600
platforms.
Well, I, I think that your

726
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,960
website's good enough.
I'm on it right now there.

727
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,640
This is pretty easy to get
through.

728
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,680
I don't see social links, but
any social links?

729
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,240
Nope, I don't see any on here,
but you have plenty of stuff on

730
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,640
this website from all of your
books here.

731
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,040
This is.
Just be able to get to Patreon

732
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,400
from there and let's see here.
Yep, I do see the Patreon.

733
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,760
Should be a link to my blog.
Can I just sort of say that?

734
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,960
All right.
Yep.

735
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:17,400
All right, I got.
Yep.

736
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,360
Which need to be updated.
Well, Michael, I appreciate you.

737
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,000
I really do.
I'm happy that we were able to

738
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,480
get this interview in.
I, I can't say it enough,

739
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,680
Anybody listening to this,
there's a reason why I dedicated

740
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,120
the entirety of the the
Halloween Special to Michael and

741
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,120
his book.
The book once again is called

742
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,480
Beast Beyond Belief.
If you're looking for a book

743
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,920
that encompasses all of the
unknown, this is really good for

744
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,600
you.
And it goes beyond the common

745
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,680
everyday talked about Cryptid,
Bigfoot, Mothman, A chupacabra,

746
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,400
right?
It dives into a lot of the nooks

747
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,080
and crannies of the world where
for some reason others aren't

748
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,840
talking about.
And Mr. Winkle here does a

749
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,880
phenomenal job at putting this
together.

750
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,800
Very, very good.
I'll, I'll be looking for more

751
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,080
of your work to come out and in
years to come.

752
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:15,880
And I, I really do look forward
to that.

753
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,360
But Mike, I just wanted to say
one more time.

754
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,600
More little anecdotes I could
use everyday.

755
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,520
So good.
Good.

756
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,760
I I hope, I hope that keeps
coming to you.

757
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,760
But I just wanted to say one
more time, thank you so much.

758
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:32,520
Thank you I, I I love the the
book.

759
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,360
It was great interview learned a
lot from you man.

760
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,960
But it was tonight or over the
the time period I was reading

761
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,480
your book, I really did learn a
lot and I I look forward to

762
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,280
learning more from you.
Thanks for all your kind words

763
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,040
and how you've been spreading
the word about the book.

764
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,680
Oh yes, I bet I told a lot of
people about it.

765
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,680
A lot of people hopefully get
you some book sales because this

766
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,560
book does deserve to be read and
and use it's it's really, really

767
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,760
good content.
But all right, Mike, do you have

768
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,320
anything else to say to the
listeners?

769
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,840
Well, just go out there and look
for those cryptids.

770
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:06,840
All right.
Maybe you'll leave the one to

771
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,200
catch 1 all right, An easy one
like a little rabbit with.

772
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,320
Wings like the flabbit.
I love it.

773
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,400
All right, well, that has been
another episode of the Infinite

774
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,400
rabbit Hole podcast.
Happy Halloween, everybody, stay

775
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,200
safe out there.
Watch your kiddos and try not to

776
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,840
eat too much candy.
What am I saying?

777
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,400
Go ahead, eat it.
Eat it all.

778
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:28,480
Just eat.
I'm going to I'm going to

779
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,360
overdose on Reese's peanut
butter cups.

780
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,600
Anyways, I can't tell you not to
do something, but I'm going to

781
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,680
go do it myself.
So until next time, travelers,

782
00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:38,160
my name is Jeremy and I'm the
host of the infant rat hole and

783
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,680
we'll see you right here in the
next fork and path of the infant

784
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,560
and Rabbit hole.
Bye everybody.

785
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:50,800
Good night.
Hey everybody, thanks for

786
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,960
checking out the Infinite Rabbit
Hole podcast.

787
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:55,200
If you're looking for more of
our stuff, head on over to

788
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,560
infiniterabbithole.com where you
can find links to all the

789
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,960
podcast players that we are
available on and even our video

790
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,040
platforms such as TikTok and
YouTube.

791
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,920
While you're there, make sure to
check out all the links for our

792
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,200
socials and hit that follow so
you know when all the new stuff

793
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,280
from our podcast comes out.
And until next time, travelers,

794
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,000
we'll see you right here in the
next fork in the path of the

795
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,920
Infinite Rabbit hole.
Bye.