235. The Impact of Artificial Intelligence w/ Jacob Ward

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Hey travelers.
In today's episode, we're

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thrilled to welcome Jacob Ward,
a veteran journalist and thought

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leader focus on the complex
relationship between technology,

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science, and human behavior.
Jacob brings his extensive

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experience as a correspondent
for Major Networks and his

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insights from his critically
acclaimed book The Loop to our

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discussion.
We'll dive into the fascinating

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world of artificial intelligence
and its profound impact on our

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lives.
Explore how AI interacts with

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our human behavior, often
tapping into our automatic

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decision making processes driven
by our quote UN quote lizard

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brain.
We'll discuss the societal

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implications of AI, from
potential job losses to ethical

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concerns, and how predictive
policing and surveillance are

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reshaping our privacy landscape.
As we look to the future,

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question the value of human
labor in an AI driven world in a

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potential mental health
challenges that would arise from

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increased free time and a lack
of purpose.

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We'll also touch on the concept
of a technocracy, where a few

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hold significant power due to
technological advancements, and

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consider the vastness of the
universe with the Fermi Paradox

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and the possibility of
extraterrestrial life.

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Join us as we navigate these
cultural and economic shifts,

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emphasizing the importance of
purpose and human satisfaction,

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and the need for long term
thinking to address global

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challenges.
Welcome back to Infinite Rabbit

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Hole.
Welcome back to The Infinite

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Rabbit Hole.
I'm your host, Jeremy, and

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tonight we have a special guest
like we typically do.

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This one, though, is going to
dissect a very interesting and

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current event related topic, AI
and a lot of the aspects of AI

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that you're not thinking about.
So today we are thrilled to be

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joined by Jacob Ward, a veteran
generalist, author and thought

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leader focused on the
complicated relationship between

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technology, science, and human
behavior.

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For years, Jacob has served as a
correspondent for major networks

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including NBC News, where he
reported on technology and its

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social implications for shows
like Nightly News and the Today

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Show.
His extensive career includes

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work with PBSCNN and Al Jazeera,
and he previously held the

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position of Editor in Chief of
Popular Science Magazine.

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He is the host and Co writer of
the Landmark for our PBS series

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Hacking Your Mind, which
explores the science of decision

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making and bias.
Most importantly, we're here

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today to discuss his work on his
critically acclaimed book, The

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Loop.
How AI is creating a world

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without choices and how to fight
back in the loop, Jacob warned

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us about the unintended
consequences of artificial

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intelligence on our free will
and decision making, offering a

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vital guide for navigating an
increasingly automated world.

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Jacob, welcome to the.
I really appreciate you having

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me, this is very exciting.
Good, good, good AI is your is

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your your bread and butter right
now.

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I know the you've done a lot of
work into psychological topics,

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right?
Especially influence.

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How did you get into all this?
Let's start with the.

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Let's start with the very
beginning.

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Sure.
So I really appreciate you guys

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having me.
The So I've been a technology

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correspondent for a long time.
And Once Upon a time, technology

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correspondents were sort of
expected to be just kind of

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upbeat nerds who thought only
about like, which phone is

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better, right?
And around 2013 and I started

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working first for Al Jazeera and
then I did this PBS series.

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I was thinking more and more
about technology as a kind of

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reflection of society.
I had a, an early mentor who

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used to ask this question.
A lot of the time he'd say, what

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is the technology trying to tell
us about ourselves, right?

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We build stuff specifically to
address something in ourselves,

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a vulnerability, a market
opportunity, whatever it is.

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And so as I was starting to
think about that, I had this

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opportunity to do this PBS
series Hacking Your Mind.

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And Hacking Your Mind was a four
hour kind of crash course in

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about the last 50 years of
behavioral science.

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And I got the opportunity to
travel all over the world and

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interview all these people who
study why we make choices the

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way we do and what the basic
take away of that series is, as

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is the basic take away of the
last 50 years of all of this

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behavioral science.
Is that a huge amount of our

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decision making?
Probably 85 to 90% at any given

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time is totally automatic and
based on very, very ancient

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instincts, instincts that we
share with primates like, you

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know, choosing who to trust,
what to eat, where to go.

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One big example of this is like
if, if any of us right.

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So I, I just spent the weekend
driving my kid from volleyball

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game to volleyball game.
If I'm assigned to drive my kid

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somewhere, it's as often as not,
I might just automatically drive

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her by accident to school
because that is the standard

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route you take every morning,
right?

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And so I don't know how many,
how often you've been in the

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position, right?
You guys have like, you show up

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at the school and you're like,
oh, wait, this is not where I'm

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supposed to take her.
Oh, my God, why have I done

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this?
And the fact is, right, if you

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cast your mind back across that
drive like you've done an

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incredibly sophisticated
mechanical task with no

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consciousness at all, you're on
total autopilot, right?

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And that kind of autopilot is
what all these behavioral

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scientists have shown is driving
a huge amount of our choices in

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our day-to-day lives.
So the same time that I was

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learning about all of that and
the way in which those choices

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that we make are very
predictable, that the mistakes

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we make are very predictable.
I was also in my day job as as a

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technology correspondent,
learning about these fly by

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night companies that were
starting to use early machine

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learning and what was at the
time called human reinforcement

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learning algorithms.
This was early AI, before

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ChatGPT became possible.
And I thought, oh, this is a

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real problem.
I'm not the kind of person who

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believes, like, I have to get my
ideas into the world at all

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costs.
But this was a moment where I

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was like, man, I don't see
anybody else talking about the

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intersection of our
vulnerabilities in terms of our

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brains and our behavior and this
for profit industry that's about

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to explode around the
commercialization of AI.

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And I thought you guys that I
was like 5 years early.

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I thought I was like, you know,
way out in front of this.

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And I had a few people read this
book and be like, I don't know,

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this sounds like science
fiction.

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This is pretty speculative.
You know, when we first

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published the book in 2020, the
first issue, the first version

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of it came out in 20.
No, sorry early or sorry at the

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very beginning of 2022, we
didn't even put the word AI on

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it because we thought, oh, this
is going to that'll, that'll

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alienate people.
People will think this is a book

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for nerds.
And, and we don't and we want

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people to, to, you know,
everyone to read this.

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And then nine months later,
ChatGPT comes out and suddenly

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my thesis comes to life.
And you know, I mean, I, I just,

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I'm seeing my book that was
supposed to predict something

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way out in advance and try to
hopefully warn people against it

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in some way.
I was encouraging people to get

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involved in policy and in
lawsuits to try and slow this

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down.
Suddenly it's just taken off.

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And I, I have to admit to you
that like the last like year and

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a half, I've kind of been in a
little bit of a depressive

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slump, just kind of watching my
thesis come to life.

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I've just been so bummed,
honestly, that I've kind of

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withdrawn from the topic.
I've just been like surfing and

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hanging out with my kids.
I got laid off from NBC News

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last year.
And so I've had some severance

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and some time to just like
chill.

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And now I'm suddenly looking
around.

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I'm going, you know what, I got
to start talking about this

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again.
I got to get re engaged in this

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topic because it is happening so
fast and it's poised to, I

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think, transform our world and
not, I would argue necessarily

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for the better unless we start
making some big moves right now.

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And so that's why I'm joining
you today is trying to just sort

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of I'm, I'm trying to have as
many of these conversations as I

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can to say, listen, I don't
think our brains are ready for

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this.
That's fundamentally my thesis

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here.
So which phone is the best then?

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Yeah.
All that stuff.

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So, So what?
I know, right?

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Exactly.
I can't tell you how often I, I,

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this is exactly what I was like.
I'll get into a long

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conversation with somebody about
like agency and human will and

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blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then they'll be like, and by

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the way, I'm having some e-mail
trouble.

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Can you help me with my e-mail?
That's really funny.

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Well, you know, if you're
offering, you know, yeah.

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Yeah, I know, right?
So you're just like a

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overpowered IT, right?
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

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I don't know about all that.
But anyway, can you help me with

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my Ring camera?
No, we, we've recently dove deep

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quite a bit into AI and the
troubles that it poses.

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Jeff, did you have a question,
man?

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So I'm sorry bud.
No, no, you're good.

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Go ahead.
OK.

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Yeah, we've, we've dove very
heavily into it.

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I can guarantee you there's
going to be topics that you may

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not have ever been asked to come
out of our mouths today.

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It's let's.
Go.

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I'm really excited to hear
about.

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It but I I want to get I want to
get everything else out of the

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way first before we get into,
you know, the kind of freestyle

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questions and everything.
Jake, Jeff, do you guys have any

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questions before I dive into the
ones that I have?

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Nope.
I hope you're ready, Jacob,

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because I'm the crazy 1, so
we're going to be.

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Good, good, good is.
I don't have any questions, I'm

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just like, I'm just interested
in the topic.

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I'm so against AI it's not even
funny and I just watched that

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artificial intelligence movie
and Bicentennial Man yesterday

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and so.
I'm pretty well versed.

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You're well poised for this
conversation.

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You are ready.
He did all of this studying.

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Look at him.
It's the first time he's ever

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done studying.
But yeah, well, I can't say I'm

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a huge fan of it, but I can see
it benefit benefiting us in

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limited usages.
But I can definitely see the

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danger that's on the horizon.
It's actually terrifying.

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Well, here's the thing, I'll
just sort of say maybe this will

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kind of set off some some
questions and some conversation.

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Like I want to say, like, I am
not opposed to it as a

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technology.
This is it's almost always the

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case for me that like a
technology in and of itself is

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not a problem, you know, so, so
in the case of AI, you know,

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there are incredible uses,
right?

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And as the, as a guy who used
to, you know, run a magazine

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that was all about foundational
science, like the incredible

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work that can be done with a
pattern recognition system made

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possible by AI to turn, you
know, the, the, the truth, the

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revolution that made all of
these LLMS and generative AI

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possible, right?
Is this, is this transformer

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model revolution that in
20/17/2018 made it possible to

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suddenly take huge amounts of
undifferentiated data that you

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could never as a human being sit
and sift through and find

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patterns in funnel and get all
these insights out of the bottom

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of it.
If you think of all the things

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that scientists could pour into
a funnel like that, right?

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Like every single photograph of
a, of a mole on someone's back

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that might or might not be
cancerous, right?

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It, it's incredible at finding
the patterns in which predicting

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who's mole is going to turn
cancerous and who's is not.

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You pour all of the, you know,
uncharted, unnamed, well,

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everything's named, but all but
all of the stars in the sky,

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right.
And you and you look for

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patterns in how they are moving
or what's going on.

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You know, incredible discoveries
can come out of that.

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I've talked to people who say,
you know, I've, I know a guy who

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is working on a system.
He, he, he exclusively tries to

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make AI systems for either
not-for-profit sort of

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healthcare systems or for like
state governments and, and he

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makes no money as a result.
And his thing is, you know, he

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says if you gave me everybody's
birth certificate and everyone's

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home address, I could use AI to
predict whose apartments need to

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be repainted in advance to cover
up the lead paint and avoid lead

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poisoning in, in kids.
You could wipe out lead

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poisoning in young kids.
You know, like the ability to do

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incredible stuff like that is,
is enormous and fantastic.

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But here's the problem, you
guys, no one's making money

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00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,920
stripping lead paint out of
apartments.

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Nobody's making money porn stars
into funnels, right?

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That is not how we work in this
country.

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Instead, you're in a world
already where the leadership of

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these companies is saying, and
now we're going to start, you

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00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,760
know, using this to let you
write erotica or make cartoon

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porn girlfriends for yourselves
or whatever it is, right?

241
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,920
It's it's how you make money off
it that turns the technology

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into something bad.
And in my case, I was just at a

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conference where I was watching
presentation after presentation

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00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,920
after presentation by people who
work in what's called trust and

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00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,520
safety.
These are the sort of content

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moderators at at social media
platforms.

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And, you know, they were just
showing time and again and again

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here, look, here's the
photographs that AI can generate

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that absolutely no one will be
able to spot as being fake.

250
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,120
Here's the political messaging
that turns out to be way more

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00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,080
persuasive, not way more, but
substantially more persuasive

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than than messaging written by
an actual human.

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And it doesn't even have to be
written by somebody who who

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writes the language, who even
understands our language.

255
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So you just are seeing time and
again and again that this stuff

256
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can be used for great stuff, but
it can also be used for terrible

257
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stuff.
And that terrible stuff tends to

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make us more money.
And so that's my big problem.

259
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,160
That's my big push back against
it.

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00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,280
It's not that AI can't be used
for amazing things, but as a

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human species, we tend to do the
worst things with what we have.

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And so, you know, my big concern
is, you know, the whole deep

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00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,000
fake technology, at some point
it's going to get, so it's going

264
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,000
to get so freaking difficult to
tell what's a fabricated photo

265
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,640
or a, you know, like if I wanted
to make a, a video of Jacob Ward

266
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,360
drowning puppies in a river in
order to ruin his life, you

267
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,240
know, I could do that in 10
seconds, put it out there.

268
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,240
And then you're still going to
have people out.

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Even if it's able to be, you
know, shown that this is, you

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00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,600
know, baloney.
It's not a real video.

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You're still going to have
people out there years after the

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00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,680
event, like every single, you
know, smear campaign that we

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00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,440
see.
They're going to believe that

274
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,760
lie or at least think in the
back of their heads.

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Maybe Jacob Ward is capable of
drowning puppies.

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Totally.
You know, and let's and let's

277
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,400
say and let's say I.
Am If it ruins your life, you

278
00:14:58,400 --> 00:14:59,280
know why not.
Totally.

279
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,080
And let's say I am a serial
puppy drowner, right?

280
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,560
And you catch me with a camera
doing it, I'm then going to be

281
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,320
in a position to say, that's not
me.

282
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,760
Look, you can't tell.
You can't believe your lying

283
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,840
eyes because clearly we're in a
world in which you can't trust

284
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,320
video evidence anymore.
This is my whole problem with

285
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,600
the latest release from from
Open AI, which allows people to

286
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,000
make these 10 second videos that
are all set for, you know,

287
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,360
they're perfect for social media
and they're already flooding my

288
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,560
social media, you know, like,
I'm like, what is the purpose of

289
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,680
this?
What is it that we needed?

290
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:30,600
What problem is this solving?
Right?

291
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,960
Like, I think we are already not
doing a great job with hanging

292
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,560
on to what's true and what's
not.

293
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,200
And, and to totally it, it just
feels like the, it's almost as

294
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,240
if the objective is to
absolutely destabilize what we

295
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,720
can trust and what we can't so
that there won't be any video

296
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,280
evidence tomorrow.
I mean, as a journalist who

297
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,320
believes that there really is a
way to to prove a thing, You

298
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,840
know, one of the number one ways
you prove a thing is you catch

299
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,280
somebody on camera doing that
thing.

300
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,240
And if that's going to go out
the window, I don't know you

301
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,160
guys like I'm not sure what
we're going to, how we're going

302
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,840
to agree on anything anymore.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I obviously

303
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,080
I see that that's like an issue,
but I, I don't even see that as

304
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,640
like a major issue personally,
because I think that most of the

305
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,200
society is kind of already at
that point, even without AI,

306
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,280
like nobody believes anything,
right?

307
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,760
Or, you know, you have all these
different like factions of ideas

308
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,320
and people can't agree on
anything no matter what, even if

309
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,720
you do show them a real video of
something, right?

310
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,920
Like it doesn't matter at this
point.

311
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:30,680
So my, my bigger concern is that
the use of AI to sift through

312
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,880
and like organize data on us,
right?

313
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,840
So I know that there's like a
big, we all know this, right?

314
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,120
Like we're all being tracked in
every way, shape and form,

315
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:38,960
right?
Thank, thank you.

316
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,960
Patriot Act.
They're listening to and

317
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,560
watching everything that's
happening.

318
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,280
It's not happening.
Yeah, literally, right.

319
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,600
But the problem is like they're
going to take it up to the next

320
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,240
level, I think, right?
They're going to start using

321
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,000
this to track like biometric
data on all of us and these

322
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,800
types of things.
The control factor from whether

323
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,080
it's a government or
corporations like, you know,

324
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,400
compiling all that data to feed
you, whatever.

325
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,240
That's my bigger concern.
The the deep fake stuff is like

326
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,640
whatever, nobody believes shit
anyway.

327
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,599
So, well, yeah, I'm not quite as
I'm not, I'm not as nihilistic

328
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,480
as you are about about truth.
And I like to believe, you know,

329
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,119
I'm trying to do this job still
of sifting some truth out of the

330
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,599
world.
But I, I absolutely agree with

331
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,880
you that like that trust is at
an all time low around that

332
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,119
stuff.
And so it's going to get even

333
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,160
worse in that case.
But I 100% agree with you that

334
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,960
there is about to be a huge
surveillance problem and that

335
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:34,240
problem, you know, so I, I think
that the, the, the government

336
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,600
version of it, even if you put
that aside and, and I'm not

337
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,680
arguing that, that that's
somehow not something to worry

338
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,320
about.
But like, I think mostly about

339
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,280
corporate actors these days,
right?

340
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:49,680
Because the the pipeline of data
from the incredible amount of

341
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,840
information that we have
volunteered to these companies

342
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,280
in the last 10 years and how
that is about to get poured into

343
00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:00,680
these funnels that can find
patterns in huge amounts of data

344
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,240
has created an incredible
surveillance opportunity for

345
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,400
these companies, right.
So like Once Upon a time, the

346
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,800
big breakthrough, Mark
Zuckerberg's big breakthrough,

347
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:14,080
was this idea of revealed
preferences was the term of art

348
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,880
in the social media world, which
is, you know, if I look at that,

349
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,120
you know enough, if I look at
you enough, Jeff, and I look at

350
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:25,160
enough other people who are
similar to your behavior, I can

351
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,640
pick out of your collective
behavior some revealed

352
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,080
preferences is what they call
it.

353
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:34,200
And that just means like the
stuff where if I asked you in a

354
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,080
poll, hey, are you into this
kind of thing?

355
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,480
You'd be like, no, I like this
and this and this.

356
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,640
But your unconscious mind, you
know, just can't help but look

357
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,920
at XY and Z when it's shown it
and it's, you know, it's the

358
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,520
equivalent of like you drive
past a car accident.

359
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,760
Nobody would ever say in a, you
know, in a survey, I like

360
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,960
looking at car accidents, you
know, but it is clear from your

361
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,840
behavior, the behavior that you
should exhibit on the social

362
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,240
media platform that you can't
help but look at that, right?

363
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,160
So you you pour enough of that
kind of revealed preference data

364
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,880
into a social media platform and
they start to build right

365
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,760
engagement algorithms based on
that.

366
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,840
And that's how we got into the
trouble we were in to start

367
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,800
with.
Now you're going to have this

368
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:19,400
incredible ability to find
meaning in that data and

369
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,200
predictive forecasting that's
going to let you say this

370
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,360
person's going to be way into
this and way into this kind of

371
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:27,600
thing.
And it's not even going to be a

372
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,840
question of funneling, you know,
content that you, you know, that

373
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,080
someone has made to you, they're
going to be able to just custom

374
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,600
generate it, right?
So for me, that's one huge

375
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,800
problem.
And then, like you say, the

376
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,800
surveillance part of it, I mean,
already there's technology out

377
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,200
there that, you know, can turn
Wi-Fi signals into an ability to

378
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,280
tell how many people are in the
room and who's moving around.

379
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:53,240
And you know, the the incredible
ability to watch our behavior on

380
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,040
an ongoing basis is just going
to be on precedented and and the

381
00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,920
fact that it's all going to be
done for that it's going to be

382
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,960
done for money almost makes me
more worried than if it were

383
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:04,920
done.
For some reason.

384
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,840
I'm I'm more worried about it
being done by corporations than

385
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,000
I am by governments.
But that's my sure little thing.

386
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,280
I'm with that.
I mean, for sure, you know, I've

387
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,440
been seeing me and my other
codes.

388
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,200
We talk a lot about this thing
that's been talked about a lot

389
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,800
recently, which is kind of weird
predictive policing.

390
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:23,920
Have you Have you heard?
This yes Pred Pol.

391
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,000
I have a whole part of my book
about that.

392
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,080
You know, like to me, like that
ties into all of this data

393
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,960
collection and the surveillance
state stuff.

394
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,040
So like, it's literally going to
be like minority report in my,

395
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,880
my worst case, right?
It's like they're going to just

396
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,200
look at you and be like, hey,
and we, we can predict based off

397
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,000
of all these things that you're
talking about in five years, you

398
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,160
you're probably going to commit
some kind of crime and they'll

399
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,520
be able to somehow work that
into legislation and like, it

400
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,560
becomes like a whole new world,
literally.

401
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,440
And here's the here's the thing
that I get really worried about

402
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,960
with that is that, you know, one
of the, one of the themes that I

403
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,160
come back to a lot in the book
is this concept of

404
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,000
anthropomorphism, right?
Which is the, the, the, the

405
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,240
assuming that a really
sophisticated, sorry, assuming

406
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,920
that a system you don't
understand is somehow really

407
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,360
sophisticated.
So just because you don't know

408
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,120
how it works, you assume it's
right is just it's just a

409
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:13,720
natural human tendency.
This is one of those greatest

410
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,920
hits of the last 50 years of
behavioral science was learning

411
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,080
that one.
In that case you just you have

412
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,000
these.
So that's the thing about

413
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,680
predictive policing right is
that it it delivers.

414
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,720
This is true also of like facial
recognition systems is they

415
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:33,720
deliver a you know, a a
conclusion for an arresting

416
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,240
officer that you know, it
doesn't explain itself, doesn't

417
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,440
say how it came to that
conclusion and saves that person

418
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,440
a huge amount of work and that
and that be is an irresistible

419
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,680
combination.
And so you wind up in these

420
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,040
systems where so pred poll LA
Los Angeles used this for a long

421
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,080
time until it was basically
shown that it had all kinds of

422
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,560
biased results because it was
leading what it was essentially

423
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,160
doing was kind of pre inditing
sections of the city based on

424
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,800
past patterns.
And as a result, a kid who just

425
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,480
happens to live in that
neighborhood is going to get

426
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,280
grabbed by the police way more
often.

427
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,760
You know, a perfectly innocent
kid is going to get is much more

428
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,480
likely to get accidentally
grabbed by the police.

429
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,840
And so eventually LA has now
cancelled their contract with

430
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,280
this these systems.
But for years they were, they

431
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,520
were using it and it was because
it, everyone just kept saying

432
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,880
it's a neutral system, It's a
neutral arbiter.

433
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,840
It's a, you know, but the truth
is no one really at the front

434
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,760
lines of operating that system
knows what it's doing, how it's

435
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,000
making its choices.
And it's so convenient.

436
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,280
No one wants to resist it.
So that's my other worry about

437
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:40,280
this.
You know, I really, I think

438
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,400
we're not great at saying, you
know, 1 stat I, I bumped into,

439
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:48,440
in the, in the book is there?
I, I looked at this big study of

440
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,520
a, the big healthcare records
company is a company called Epic

441
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,520
that it deals with your
electronic medical records.

442
00:22:56,120 --> 00:23:00,080
And they created a predictive
system that will help

443
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,600
cardiologists make a priority
list of their patients that day

444
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,280
based on who, who's most likely
to have a cardiac event that

445
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,920
day.
And The thing is, it works.

446
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,160
It works pretty well.
They're getting out in front of

447
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,920
cardiac events early.
These doctors are, are able to,

448
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,880
to get in and make interventions
early like that.

449
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,520
You know, in a lot of ways you
can't argue with it because it

450
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,520
really works well.
But here's where I get worried

451
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,360
about it.
I said, well, I asked the, the

452
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:28,080
makers of it, well, how often
like your, your doctors must be

453
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,080
irritated to be told what to do
by a system like this.

454
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,800
And they said, oh, no, no,
they're thrilled.

455
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,880
They're thrilled about it.
Like they don't want to have to

456
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,960
make that choice.
They love being told what the

457
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,640
order is.
And I was like, oh wow, has

458
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,320
anyone?
And, and how often do they ask

459
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,320
how it makes decisions?
And they were like, one guy

460
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,040
asked once and that's it.
You know what I mean?

461
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,600
And so like, so there but for
the grace of God, right.

462
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,200
You might have a system that
works really well.

463
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,200
You might not, you don't know,
but people are only too happy to

464
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,120
let the decision get handed off
to these systems.

465
00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:58,800
This is our what our wiring is
about.

466
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,760
We don't like to make choices.
We like to be able to offload or

467
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,440
outsource our decision making.
It's part of our human

468
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,880
programming.
And this is the ultimate

469
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,040
outsourcing system, and yet we
have no idea how it works or

470
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,280
whether it's doing a good job.
Do you believe?

471
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,400
I mean, that's basically a form
of triage, isn't it?

472
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,240
Yeah, right.
And and like again, like you'd

473
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,080
want that to work well.
But there was AI had a, a

474
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,040
physician once explained to me
that one of the number one

475
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:33,320
causes of malpractice lawsuits
is a failure to look at a

476
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,840
patient's back.
And they'll then get bed sores

477
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,120
and and no one it finds out,
right.

478
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,960
And the theory going about that
is that the doctor is too buried

479
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,960
in the chart.
The doctor's already overworked,

480
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,600
right?
Has 2A patient load they can't

481
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,400
handle.
They're buried in the chart.

482
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,440
They just look at the vitals
that are on the chart.

483
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,040
And then they say, you know, OK,
I think it's this, let's do

484
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,040
this, right?
And they don't, they just don't

485
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,880
have the time or the incentive
to roll that person over and

486
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,720
check out their whole body,
right?

487
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,920
Like it's that kind of thing.
And I, I would just worry like

488
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,120
at every level of really
essential services in this

489
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:08,040
country, you're going to have
people saying, oh, I don't have

490
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,400
to do that anymore.
The AI tells me which suspect to

491
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,440
arrest.
The AI tells me who to hire for

492
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,960
this job.
The AI tells me which of these

493
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,720
people I should date it.
We're going to be using these

494
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,520
systems in ways that I think are
going to wipe out our, our, it's

495
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,560
going to do to our ability to
make good choices for ourselves.

496
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,600
What like GPS has done to our
sense of direction.

497
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,000
I can't find my way around my
own town anymore because of GPS.

498
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,440
Same.
Is this going to be?

499
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,480
So I kind of go back and forth
on this a lot.

500
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,480
You know, obviously, like it
freaks me out because we're

501
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,680
living in this transitional
period, right?

502
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,240
We're going to witness it from
before.

503
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,760
I remember going outside and
playing, right?

504
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,120
And then now it's like we're
going into this new world

505
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,440
situation.
But is it going to be a thing

506
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,440
where in a few generations in
the future, maybe 50 to 100

507
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,960
years in the future?
Like it's so well developed in

508
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,880
advance that it's actually
incredibly beneficial, like net

509
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,240
positive for humanity, right?
Like, we live in some kind of,

510
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,480
you know, utopian paradise, you
know, an abundant civilization

511
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,640
because of it.
You know, I mean, that is

512
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,760
certainly what that's, that's
the vision being sold by the

513
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,880
companies making it right.
They're all it's, it's the

514
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,000
weirdest time to be a reporter
because they say things that in

515
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,280
the old days, and I'm old enough
to remember, some old days would

516
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,640
have been an absolute death
sentence from a sort of public

517
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,000
relations standpoint.
So you'll have a guy like Sam

518
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,680
Altman saying openly, huge
numbers of jobs are going to be

519
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,560
destroyed by our creation, you
know, and there's going to be

520
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,760
big scams that are going to be
really scary made possible by

521
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,080
what we have built here.
You know, to my mind, it and but

522
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,520
but he says it and then in the
same breath, essentially says,

523
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,400
but it's going to be worth it
because down the line there's

524
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,360
going to be this incredible, you
know, upshot, you know, upside

525
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,600
for humanity.
And I think I would just say

526
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,320
like, again, I'm down for like,
if, if it were up to me, I'd

527
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,480
make it like, let's make it like
a A5 year moratorium on

528
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,880
commercial use and just give it
to the scientists.

529
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,600
I'd like to have just scientists
use it for for five years and

530
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,680
then we can start trying to make
money off it, you know, and

531
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,360
let's see where that takes us.
First.

532
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,840
Let's see if we can wipe out
cancer and then we'll start

533
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,960
wiping out, you know, real world
girlfriends, OK, Like they hold

534
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,200
off, you know, and in the case
of like already there, there

535
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,320
isn't even evidence yet that it
has any kind of real

536
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,440
productivity gains, right?
Like there was a big MIT study

537
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,840
recently that showed that 95% of
these companies that have

538
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,840
adopted this stuff can are
reporting no productivity gains

539
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,200
at all.
Like they can't figure out any,

540
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,040
any improvement that's been
made.

541
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,560
So, you know, it may be that
that's the case, but you also

542
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,120
have to think about the other
kinds of things that the

543
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:47,560
leadership of these companies
predict.

544
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,920
So one of the things that that
Sam Altman also has said, he

545
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,400
said it at the in a January 2024
podcast with Alexis Ohanian, he

546
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,520
said that that he has a bet
going with his tech CEO friends

547
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,000
on their group chat as to when
we'll see the first billion

548
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,080
dollar one person company.
And that's like a dream of their

549
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,200
say it like he says it like it's
a positive thing.

550
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,320
And so I think to myself, OK,
well, wait a minute.

551
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:19,200
So if the future is a handful of
single person billionaires,

552
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,920
single person billionaire
companies, what are the rest of

553
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,680
us going to do for a living?
You know, and the and the the

554
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,680
dream they sort of offers like
what we're going to have a huge

555
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,320
amount of free time.
I don't know about you guys, but

556
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,920
like, this is the United States.
We don't like free time and we

557
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,280
don't like to give people free
time.

558
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,480
We certainly don't like to pay
people for free time.

559
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,080
You know, like to me, to my
mind, there's just no, there's

560
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,080
no example in history of a, of a
time when we've made it possible

561
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:50,320
to do less work and, and given
people, you know, a living for

562
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:51,760
that.
Like it's just, that's not what

563
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:52,800
we do.
Sure.

564
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,920
I mean, I do also like I pay a
lot of attention to like

565
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,640
macroeconomic stuff.
So, you know, it is also

566
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,360
interesting to me that it seems
like, and maybe this is just my

567
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,680
conspiracy minded self thinking
too much, but it does seem like

568
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,440
we're going through some kind of
monetary change, right?

569
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,000
Yes.
So it it could be something

570
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,440
where they they kind of know
they they foreseeing that this

571
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,400
being an issue.
So they're trying to flip

572
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,800
whether it be into like crypto
rails or whatever the case might

573
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,480
be.
Because I know everybody when AI

574
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,280
started dropping, everybody was
like, oh, we're going to lose

575
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,000
all these jobs.
We're going to talk about

576
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,320
universal basic income and
obviously like that doesn't

577
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,080
sound too, too good for anybody
who's not just a lazy ass, right

578
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:30,960
So.
Right.

579
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,360
I mean already, right?
You wouldn't want that.

580
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:33,880
A lot of people don't want that.
That's right.

581
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,080
Right.
But if there is some kind of

582
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,720
like monetary shift globally and
we stop looking at the financial

583
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,840
system the way that we always
have, maybe like maybe right,

584
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,880
maybe there could be some way to
make all that work together.

585
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,080
But.
Maybe, I mean, you know, now

586
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,040
we're out past the power of, of
history to be in any way

587
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,200
predictive.
Like we don't have any examples

588
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,680
of, of, of making that, of, of
that being possible.

589
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,160
And so, you know, yeah, maybe
down the road there will be some

590
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,640
kind of, you know, maybe we'll
be the end of Fiat currency and

591
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,160
we'll all be somehow, I don't
know, trading sugar syrup and,

592
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,040
and, and not worrying about, you
know, against some digital

593
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,560
currency.
And we'll be, you know, and

594
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,280
we'll be fine.
My problem is that, you know, so

595
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,800
there's a, there's a thing
called the Jevons paradox that

596
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,120
really haunts me.
So back in the 19th century, guy

597
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,480
named William Jevons was a 19th
century.

598
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,160
He was a he was a British
economist and he was trying to

599
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,800
figure out why it was that the
British Empire was running out

600
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,920
of coal, which he was
recognizing was a big problem,

601
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,360
that England itself is going to
run out of coal.

602
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,320
And, and his thing that he
identified was this weird

603
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,920
paradox in which the technology
at the time had actually gotten

604
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,880
better at burning coal in a much
more efficient way.

605
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,880
There were these new steam
engines that really had

606
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,440
revolutionized the efficient use
of coal, and yet they were using

607
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,360
more coal than ever.
And it's become a way of

608
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,880
describing that dynamic in all
these different fields.

609
00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,080
So it turns out, like the more
aqueducts you create to hang on

610
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,640
to drinking water, the more we
use up drinking water, like in

611
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,320
in example after example, the
more efficient you are in using

612
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,520
a thing, the more you consume
it.

613
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,120
And that's how I think it's
going to be with our free time.

614
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,040
I think that the more it is
possible to give someone free

615
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,280
time, the more we're going to
consume that free time and take

616
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,840
it away from people basically.
I just don't believe that

617
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,240
there's, there's a, a world in
which you're going to, you know,

618
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,720
make a, a sort of a free flowing
monetary system and a kind of,

619
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,400
you know, super generous social
policy that somehow can work

620
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,400
across borders in which we
don't, in which we're, we're

621
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,480
cool with, with people not
having to work in AI doing all

622
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,200
the jobs.
You know, Amazon has just

623
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,680
announced, the New York Times
just announced that like

624
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,800
Amazon's about to wipe out half
a million jobs.

625
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,840
They're going to automate half a
million jobs, according to

626
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,240
internal documents at Amazon,
right?

627
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,200
That's, that's, you know, half a
million jobs, you know, out of

628
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,560
like, think they employ like 1.3
million people.

629
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,240
Like that's a lot of jobs gone.
I don't think we're on a path

630
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,920
toward hanging out and and being
living a happy, relaxed life.

631
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,840
That doesn't, in my experience,
tend to be, you know, and the

632
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,560
historical lessons doesn't tend
to be the result of the moves of

633
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,080
big companies.
You own nothing and you will be

634
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,400
happy, as they say.
Yeah, that's right.

635
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,840
So, well, even if we did have a
a completely automated world,

636
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,680
we'd all end up being like those
people in Wall-e, just in their,

637
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,360
well, super fat, staring at
screens.

638
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,280
Jake, here's what you're here's
where we're at, right?

639
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,480
This is how I think about it.
So everyone keeps saying, oh,

640
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:33,880
you mean the Terminator.
You're worried about the

641
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,120
Terminator.
And I'm like, no, man, I'm not

642
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,400
worried about the Terminator.
I'm worried about Idiocracy.

643
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:38,120
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.

644
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,200
That movie.
I'm worried about wall-e.

645
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,320
Exactly.
It is a world now. wall-e would

646
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000
be OK.
Like, I mean, wall-e is a little

647
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,280
bit like what Jeff is, is, you
know, suggesting could be

648
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,520
possible, right?
Like a world in which we're just

649
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,360
like our Slurpees are brought to
us and we watch TV all day.

650
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,280
Like we're OK, you know?
Am I right?

651
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,520
That's not the worst outcome,
but I'm worried about, you know,

652
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,280
I'm, I'm worried about, you
know, something between, like,

653
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,520
what's the Elysium and
Idiocracy?

654
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:14,360
You know, like a very, you know,
a very powerful gap, a big gap

655
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,600
between rich and poor, you know,
an extremely sharp pyramid at

656
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,040
which only a handful of people
get to live at the top and the

657
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,160
rest of us are all at the
bottom.

658
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,000
And no one has the critical
faculties to see, you know, to

659
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,520
figure out a solution to the
problem.

660
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,240
Yeah.
And then also the plants

661
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,280
obviously craving Brondo
because.

662
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,080
Exactly.
Exactly.

663
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,320
That's right.
That's right.

664
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,000
Exactly.
So how worried are you about the

665
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,920
concept of a technology?
Well, I am worried about that.

666
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,040
I mean, you know, I, I, so I
have a podcast called the RIP

667
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,800
Current and, and I was trying to
figure out what it was.

668
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,200
I was going to call it when I
launched the RIP Current.

669
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,120
And, and at one point I was
thinking about calling it NPC

670
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,680
because it's a term that you
hear a lot in Silicon Valley at

671
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,760
the top level from people.
So NPC, right, for anybody,

672
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,160
everybody, I'm sure who listens
to this to you guys will, will

673
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:03,800
know this term.
But non player character, right?

674
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,680
It's the background characters
and soft in, in video games.

675
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,000
It's like the extras in movies,
right.

676
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,760
And a friend of mine makes the
the joke that that the people

677
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,719
running the top companies in
Silicon Valley are like the your

678
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,199
friend who watched Akira too
many times and didn't quite get

679
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,480
it, you know, didn't quite
understand that the lesson that

680
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,600
movie is not that superpowers
are cool.

681
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,400
It's that you shouldn't have
superpowers and that it's bad

682
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,000
for everybody else.
You know, and that's sort of how

683
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,120
I feel about the leadership of a
lot of these companies.

684
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,080
Like they is this idea, you
know, that that they can joke

685
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,320
about the idea of a billion
dollar single person company.

686
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,239
That's the definition of a
technocracy, right?

687
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,440
That for me is an enormous red
flag.

688
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,719
And so I do worry about that.
I mean, we had a whole campaign

689
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,719
here in Northern California
where I am based, there's a

690
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,000
whole group of people who are
trying to build their own Tech

691
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,760
City.
They were trying to basically

692
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,880
incorporate a whole part of, I
can't remember which I think was

693
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,160
Lake County, but this rural part
of California.

694
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,480
They're going to basically just
like take it over if they could.

695
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,920
They lost, but now they've got a
whole new plan to try and coop

696
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:17,280
coopt a a existing town.
You know, there's a real idea in

697
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,040
tech circles that, like, the
very smartest are the ones who

698
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,200
count, and everybody else is
just kind of a user and, you

699
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,320
know, a consumer.
And that that bothers the hell

700
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,320
out of me.
What do you mean by they were

701
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,560
trying to take it over like like
a 15 minute city or something

702
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,280
like that?
They were trying to basically

703
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,000
the the concept.
I'll do a little subtle Googling

704
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,040
while I can here, but there was
a whole idea that they were

705
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,320
going to create a like a sort of
tech utopian sort of city.

706
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,440
There was also the rumor mill
had it for a while that, you

707
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,480
know, it at the beginning of the
Trump administration, there was

708
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,680
some conversations going on
around, you know, trying to

709
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,040
create some kind of regulation
less city in which tech

710
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,600
companies could experiment
without any regulations at all.

711
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,520
And in the big beautiful bill
that passed at one point, there

712
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,760
was a provision that was going
to make it such that there would

713
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,680
be no regulations allowed on AI
at all for 10 years.

714
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,240
And states in the states
included would not be allowed to

715
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,640
pass any regulations on AI for
10 years, Right?

716
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,160
So there's this just there's
this clear feeling on the

717
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,200
leadership, on the part of the
leadership, these companies that

718
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,440
just leave us alone, you know,
let us figure it out.

719
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,760
I once interviewed the the
former CEO of Google, Eric

720
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,040
Schmidt, and he basically said,
he basically said that.

721
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,200
He's basically said, you know,
policy makers can't be trusted

722
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,280
to think about this stuff.
They're not smart enough.

723
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,720
Leave it to us.
We will figure it out and then

724
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:44,840
we'll regulate it later.
We'll figure out what the rules

725
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,360
should be because only we are
sort of smart enough to do this.

726
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,320
This is how this is how I think
they think about things.

727
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,640
Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of see
that, right, going back to what

728
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,000
I was saying earlier about like
maybe at some point in the, you

729
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,280
know, relatively distant future,
it becomes like a utopian

730
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,440
situation.
But, you know, going back to

731
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,520
what you were saying, you know,
if this AI can figure out a way

732
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,480
to cure cancer or slow down
aging or whatever the case might

733
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,800
be, it's not going to be cheap
enough for us to, to, to use

734
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,760
right.
Like those, those advances are

735
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,600
going to be something that only
these billionaires, at least I

736
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,440
think are going to be able to
utilize that.

737
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,560
So maybe that's why they have
this mentality because they,

738
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,080
they kind of in the back of
their mind, they're like, hey

739
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,360
man, we're going to live the
next 1000 years.

740
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,880
The schmucks aren't, you know,
So if we could just.

741
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,680
The longevity stuff is a is a
whole cultural facet of Silicon

742
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,800
Valley.
There's huge amounts of cultural

743
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,280
interest here at that high level
in sort of living forever.

744
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,240
There's a huge amount of
longevity talk.

745
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:41,160
You know, you've got people who
are, you know, taking endless

746
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,880
supplements and icing their skin
and doing all kinds of stuff

747
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,040
because they want to live
forever.

748
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,440
Yeah, all that stuff is really
is really there.

749
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,440
And at the same time, I mean, I
just think just you, there's a,

750
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,040
a feeling of intolerance.
There's a there's a guy who

751
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,040
who's a big, who's very popular
in tech circles here named

752
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,680
Curtis Yarvin.
And he has a very successful

753
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,520
newsletter and is a very
successful sort of public

754
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,280
intellectual in Silicon Valley.
And Curtis Yarvin's whole

755
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,600
argument is we need a monarchy.
We should have a techno

756
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,560
monarchy.
We shouldn't even be doing

757
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,560
democracy anymore because it
slows stuff down.

758
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,160
And, and you know, lots of
people in the tech community who

759
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,680
believe, who are into that, you
know, who are into that idea of

760
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,600
people like Peter Thiel, people
like Marc Andreessen, who's a

761
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,280
big VC out here.
You know, these, these, these,

762
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,880
there's a real cabal of people
who really believe the smartest

763
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,720
people's ideas count.
And everybody else is just kind

764
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:39,680
of an NPC.
And I think that that is a that

765
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,000
is a real, which is why I want
the utopian idea to happen.

766
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:45,360
But this is the other thing,
right?

767
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,440
Like let's say they make an AI
based cancer system.

768
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,480
I mean, you know the what they
call the capital expenditures on

769
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,720
AI, the investment they actually
have to make in the data

770
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,040
centers.
The amount of money being spent

771
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:04,040
on that accounted for 1/3 of the
total growth in GDP between last

772
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,400
year and this year.
The 1/3 of the difference

773
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,000
between how much we spent last
year as a nation, how much we

774
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,800
spent this year as a nation is
just in the tubes and computers

775
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,000
used to power this stuff.
There's investing 10s of

776
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,560
billions of dollars and that
money has to get made back.

777
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,200
So let's say they do figure out
how to cure cancer.

778
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:23,560
They're not going to give it
away for free.

779
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,080
They're going to need to make
that money back.

780
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:26,600
That's what's happening right
now.

781
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,720
And so to my mind, the
commercialization of AI is going

782
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:31,000
to create this incredible
pressure to make money.

783
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,120
And and that's not going to lead
them to utopian stuff, it seems

784
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,800
to me.
You know you guys ever seen that

785
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,280
show Altered Carbon?
Yes, you know what's so funny?

786
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,800
That that's those are the books
I relax with, weirdly enough, I

787
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,000
love.
I love writing.

788
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:46,840
I can't read, but the show was
great.

789
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,120
And this is what it makes me
feel like it it it makes me feel

790
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,720
like that that utopian AI driven
world is going to be for those

791
00:39:55,720 --> 00:39:57,480
people who live above the
clouds, right?

792
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,920
It's like, like you were saying
earlier, it's going to be a huge

793
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,640
gap between like the rest of us
and them.

794
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,800
And you know, they might live
1000 years.

795
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,560
They might be able to upload
their consciousness to the

796
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,640
stacks and clone themselves to
continue like some weird shit

797
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,280
like that.
But that, that's what I always

798
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,080
think about when I really start
thinking about this stuff.

799
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:16,200
Yeah, totally.
I think there's a, there's a, a,

800
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:22,080
you know, I, I just think
there's a, there's a, like the

801
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,480
problem with our society as
we've got it built right now,

802
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,080
right?
The whole neoliberal project,

803
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,080
the, the, the capitalist world
that we live in is somebody's

804
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,560
got to lose, right?
It's not a world in which

805
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,080
everybody gets to win.
Somebody wins and somebody

806
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,400
loses.
And the problem has always been,

807
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,240
can you keep those things in at
least a relative balance so that

808
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:47,440
being at the bottom end of the
society isn't like living in a

809
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,080
medieval way.
It is a, you know, an OK life,

810
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,120
right?
We and we've had that in

811
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,840
American history.
But this is not the path to

812
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,040
that.
It doesn't seem to me.

813
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,920
So.
At a certain point, we can also

814
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,120
talk about happier topics.
You guys.

815
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,480
I know I am.
Like I'm such a bum.

816
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,600
Oh, no, no, no, I.
Ruin every party I go to.

817
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,760
Our listeners are sick.
They love the depressing.

818
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,400
Yeah, you seem like a lot of fun
for sure.

819
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,360
No, our, our listeners are, are
pretty gross, like our, our

820
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:18,360
toughest, our highest, like
grossing shows or topics are

821
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,120
ones where people are horribly
killed in terrible accidents and

822
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,760
things like that.
They're missing forever and

823
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,200
stuff like.
That maybe you're my tribe,

824
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:27,360
maybe I've been.
We love it.

825
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,840
So yeah, we've, we've talked a
lot just kind of freestyling

826
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,360
here.
But I want to, I want to shine

827
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,560
some light on the book.
I'm a, I'm a big book guy.

828
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,600
So I always end up steering the
conversation, especially with an

829
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,160
author into the topic of their
book.

830
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,040
So I want to talk about the
loop, right?

831
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,680
So which was what you published,
like you said in January of

832
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,040
2022, you predicted the AI
revolution we're seeing now.

833
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,040
And we talked about that pretty
heavily already.

834
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,320
Not necessarily a prediction,
but AI in general.

835
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,120
How about the subtitle is how AI
is Creating a World without

836
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,720
choices.
Now, could you break that down

837
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:07,520
for the audience?
And how does how exactly does a

838
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,560
system designed to give us more
options or a better experience

839
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,040
ultimately limit our choices?
Well, I love this question.

840
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,120
So as I said, I spent a huge
amount of time looking at both

841
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,680
the behavioral science world and
then the technology world.

842
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,040
So the behavioral science world
accounts for about the first

843
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,120
third of the book where I'm
trying to get people kind of a

844
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:30,200
crash course in some of the big
lessons of the last 50 years and

845
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,120
and more of a behavioral
science.

846
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,720
And one of the big ones is we as
a as a species.

847
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,320
So a lot of this comes from a
guy named Daniel Kahneman who

848
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,360
wrote a book called Thinking
Fast and Slow.

849
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,760
That was a very famous book for
a time.

850
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,360
He won the Nobel Prize in
economics.

851
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,960
He was a psychologist who
beginning in the 1970s with a

852
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,240
partner named Amos Tversky,
created a whole bunch of

853
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:55,720
experiments that showed that if
you basically people hate to

854
00:42:55,720 --> 00:43:00,280
make choices and will take any
excuse to outsource that

855
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,520
decision making if they can.
And he came up with an idea of

856
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,120
this thinking fast and slow
idea.

857
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,240
So there's a fast thinking brain
and a slow thinking brain, a

858
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:13,840
system one and a system 2.
That system 1 fast thinking

859
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,240
brain is this one that I, as I
mentioned earlier, we have in

860
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:19,120
common with primates.
It goes way, way, way, way back.

861
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,240
It is an incredibly powerful and
well tested decision making

862
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,000
system.
And it is the system that allows

863
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,200
you to drive automatically to
your kids school without

864
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,080
thinking about it.
Yeah, your lizard brain.

865
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,200
Exactly.
That's how we say it.

866
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:34,640
Exactly.
That's your, that's your lizard

867
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,280
brain.
And, you know, and, and, and

868
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,200
we're embarrassed typically of
our, of our lizard brain.

869
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,200
But the truth is our lizard
brain got us where we are

870
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,520
because you didn't need what
using your lizard brain.

871
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:46,880
You don't have to think things
through.

872
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,080
You don't have to, you know, if
a snake comes into the room and

873
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,240
we're all sitting together, you
don't go, oh, what kind of snake

874
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:54,640
is that?
You know, you, you freak out,

875
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,480
stand up, everybody else in the
room freaks out and stands up

876
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,840
and you're out.
The room and the tribe is saved,

877
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,960
right?
It's the automatic ways we make

878
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,800
choices, not just individually,
but as a group.

879
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,920
We transmit when I show you a
mask of horror because there's

880
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,920
because the room's on fire.
You don't need to see that the

881
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,120
room's on fire.
You just run.

882
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,160
You know, the Cedric the
entertainer has a great line

883
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,880
about, well, he's like, when I
see black people run, you don't

884
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,280
ask why you just start running.
He's like, you can't help but

885
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,880
run it, you know, and, and, and
that is exactly it.

886
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,920
Like that's what, what, that's
how our system works.

887
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,680
So that's all the lizard brain
stuff, our slow thinking brain,

888
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,600
our fat, our, our, what's called
our, our system 2, what he,

889
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,360
Daniel Kahneman called our
system 2.

890
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:38,080
That's the cautious, creative,
rational, kind of better, more

891
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,320
human decision making system.
And the idea is that like

892
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,920
100,000 years ago, that's the
system that caused, you know,

893
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,040
back when everyone was living on
the continent of what is now

894
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,760
Africa, everyone, you know,
somebody stood up and said,

895
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,400
what's over there?
And that's that part of the

896
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,360
brain that goes, oh, what else
is beyond this campfire?

897
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,840
You know, I wonder what would
happen if we didn't just think

898
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,920
about our survival, like what
happens after we die?

899
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,480
And why did I have that weird
dream?

900
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,080
You know, those thoughts are a
totally new decision making

901
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,200
system.
And that system is super glitchy

902
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,720
and you know, because it's
untested, it's like a brand new

903
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:17,000
piece of software in in
evolutionary terms.

904
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:22,160
So what the estimate is that 90%
of your choices are made by the

905
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,640
lizard brain.
And this little group of choices

906
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,640
is made by your slow thinking
brain.

907
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,360
And my thesis in the book is if
you're a company that's created

908
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,320
a pattern recognition system
that can tell you what people

909
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,000
are going to do in the future,
can can forecast their behavior

910
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,400
and even maybe shape their
behavior because you want to try

911
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,720
and make money off of them.
Who are you going to try and

912
00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:47,640
sell to?
Do you want to sell to the

913
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,360
cautious, creative, rational
part of the brain that thinks

914
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,320
things through right and makes
good choices?

915
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,480
Or do you want to sell to the
one that can't help but look at

916
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,000
the cleavage picture, right?
That can't help but drive to his

917
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:06,040
kids school by accident, right?
The automatic brain that, you

918
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,280
know, was like where my
alcoholism came from.

919
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,200
You know, that they would much
rather sell booze to that guy

920
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:15,720
than they would to the guy that
I am today who said, you know

921
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:17,080
what?
I got to actually stop drinking

922
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,200
and I'm I'm going to quit
drinking.

923
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,160
So to my mind, a system like
this absolutely could create

924
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,960
huge amounts of choice.
We would love that, but I think

925
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,960
when you overlay the need to
make money off these systems

926
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,600
onto it, they're not going to.
Why would they?

927
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,080
Why would they try and make us
more like these people?

928
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,960
They're going to want to make
us, you know, more like our

929
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,200
rational selves.
Why wouldn't they want to make

930
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,360
us more and more instinctive?
Because the instincts are so

931
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,760
easy to predict.
Do you think that they've been

932
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,080
working towards that already
with just the way that the

933
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,960
algorithms work, you know,
TikTok brain and all that and

934
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,840
shortening of tension spans?
Totally and I want to say like I

935
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,160
described this like I'm, you
know, I'm not judgy about this

936
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,520
because I am the worst person I
know around this stuff like I am

937
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,760
super manipulatable around this
stuff.

938
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,760
You know, I'm the one who
scrolls TikTok and eventually

939
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,040
the woman comes on with a TikTok
branded video that says you

940
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,680
should go to bed.
Now you've you've had enough,

941
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,200
you know, because like when the
bartender says you've had

942
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,720
enough, you know, like when the
crack dealer says you've had

943
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,480
enough, you know that you were
addicted to crack and he knows

944
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,480
you're coming back tomorrow.
You know, like I, so I, I very

945
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,800
much write this stuff and think
about this stuff not from a

946
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,840
perspective of like, hey,
everybody, you got to be

947
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,640
smarter.
I'm, I write it from the place

948
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,040
of like, I am not able to resist
any of this because it's so

949
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,120
powerful, you know, and I just
think like we have to what I

950
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,400
want everyone to do and I and
what I like is that young people

951
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,080
are better at this.
Like you, you know, Jeff, you

952
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,720
said TikTok brain, you know,
like the fact that we're naming

953
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,200
that in ourselves, right, Jake,
you said lizard brain like that.

954
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,440
We're naming that in ourselves.
I just love that we're entering

955
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,200
the world.
This is where I was where my

956
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,240
hope for the future comes from
is like young people talk very

957
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,040
openly about like, oh, brain
rot.

958
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,160
Oh, I got into brain rot.
You know, like, like they're,

959
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,720
they're conscious of how their
brains fall for this stuff.

960
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,560
And I think the more that we can
articulate that, the more we're

961
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,840
going to get to a place where
not only are we going to be able

962
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,480
to say, you know, I got to make
better choices for myself, which

963
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,480
is part of the solution, but I
don't think the main part.

964
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,880
I think then you're going to get
to a world where you're going to

965
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,080
start being able to sue on the
basis of you're going to be able

966
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,840
to sue companies for for taking
advantage of your instincts in a

967
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,280
way that you would never choose
consciously.

968
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,080
That, to my mind, is is where
the path out of this is probably

969
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,640
going to come from.
I got some crazy allegory of The

970
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,800
Cave vibes from from the
beginning of that that

971
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,280
explanation.
Plato's, what was it?

972
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,880
The Republic.
OK, tell me about that.

973
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,400
You.
You're you're better read than I

974
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:46,640
am.
I tell me I don't know my

975
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,120
Republic.
It's just a a small portion of

976
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:53,720
of his work called the Republic.
Prisoners are locked inside a

977
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:57,520
cave, and they've been in there
for so long that they're only

978
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,160
allowed to face one wall and see
the flames from the fire that's

979
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,280
stocking the wall.
They don't know how the fire

980
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,400
gets fed or anything, they just
know that it does. 1 prisoner

981
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,200
frees himself, somehow breaks
out of The Cave, learns that

982
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,720
there's an entire world outside
of The Cave, comes in, tells

983
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:20,360
them about it and nobody
believes them because their

984
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,840
whole life, basically since
birth, they were prisoners

985
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,080
inside of this cave.
And all they know is the the

986
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,040
shadows cast on the walls caused
by the fire.

987
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,880
So like when you were talking
about like Jay made the the

988
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,600
reference to lizard brain, then
you had talked about there's a

989
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:37,600
small part of your brain where
you stand up and you say, well,

990
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,840
what's over there?
I know a lot of people, some

991
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,840
people, right?
I'm not going to use figures,

992
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,240
but there's a lot of people in
trying to trying to walk a thin

993
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,360
line here.
A lot of people would be like,

994
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,240
don't be an idiot.
Don't look over there, but

995
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:52,440
because there's nothing there,
right?

996
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,800
Our whole world is right here in
this cave and our, our,

997
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,520
everything we know is being cast
in shadows on the wall.

998
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,800
But then you have those people
that are willing to to look

999
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,040
outside and say, no, there's a
whole other world out here.

1000
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,800
But then eventually the people
will make it out outside and

1001
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,040
then everyone's so depressed and
that's no that actually, that's

1002
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,600
a great segue into something
else that I wanted to talk to

1003
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,640
you about.
Sorry, I'm kind of just jumping

1004
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,400
topics here really, really
quick, but it was a perfect

1005
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,520
segue.
So you had made a point earlier

1006
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,760
about how we're going to have a
ton of free time or that that's

1007
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,840
kind of the the route.
That's what they promised

1008
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,280
anyway.
That's what they say that we

1009
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,520
will have.
Do you have any fears of?

1010
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,320
I don't even know if there's a
term for it, but the the

1011
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,360
depression that people get when
they don't have something to put

1012
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,400
their efforts towards, you see
it a lot with.

1013
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,000
Oh yeah, recent.
Retirees or Oh yeah, like Jake

1014
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,200
and I, we, we were in the Navy
together.

1015
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,640
And I mean, I went through it,
right.

1016
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,560
I got, I got medically, I got
forced medically, retired out of

1017
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,680
the Navy, and I went through a
massive depressive cycle.

1018
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,920
Oh dude, I had a total ego death
and now I just spend every

1019
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,880
second that I have doing
something.

1020
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,920
Yeah, and and you know, I'm.
Constantly busy.

1021
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,480
My wife and I, we, I wouldn't
say we argue about it, but we,

1022
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,960
we talk about it all the time.
You know, she's like you, you

1023
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,120
always have to be doing
something and it's like, you

1024
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,320
have no idea.
Like if my mind's not being

1025
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,000
exercised by a task, whether
it's at work or the podcast or

1026
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,440
hanging out with my kids or
something, I, I go crazy or I

1027
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,360
either fall asleep, right?
These guys give me crap all the

1028
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,480
time because I don't watch
movies.

1029
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,040
I fall asleep to them.
And I didn't understand 90% of

1030
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,880
the references that were made
today already.

1031
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:33,960
But so that's that's why I like
books.

1032
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,240
I get management from books
because I can physically do

1033
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:37,000
something.
I love that.

1034
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,280
Right, right, right.
But are you worried?

1035
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,520
Oh, man, yes, I, I mean, I, so I
love this.

1036
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,800
I think you're, you're touching
on something so important, so

1037
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,840
purpose.
You know, there's a whole world

1038
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:56,440
of research going on right now
around purpose and how important

1039
00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:00,920
that is to human satisfaction
because a bunch of these

1040
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,240
researchers are recognizing that
in the future, if, you know,

1041
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:09,800
people are are going to suddenly
not be working, how will they

1042
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,160
function, right?
I mean, this is a whole thing.

1043
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,240
It's not just about the money it
brings in.

1044
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:17,920
It's the identity and the value
you feel.

1045
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:24,160
You know, people really like
purpose and I really worry about

1046
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,040
a world in which, you know, we
have we have established the

1047
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:33,360
idea that the value of your of a
person has to do with their

1048
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,920
production, their productivity.
How much money do they generate?

1049
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,320
How much value do they generate,
you know, is measured in

1050
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,360
monetary terms right now.
And if we're about to enter a

1051
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,960
world in which the AI takes care
of all of that, well, then what

1052
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,640
is the value of that person?
There was a whole, I was with a,

1053
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,560
there was a think tank that I
went to once.

1054
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,840
That was all they were trying to
think about was how do we come

1055
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:59,680
up with a new way of, of
describing the value of people

1056
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:05,040
beyond the money they generate?
And to my mind, you know, so I

1057
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,200
think that it's one of the big
problems with what you're

1058
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:08,280
describing.
And it's one of the big

1059
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,720
problems, I think with people
who say, oh, we're not going to

1060
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:12,840
have to work as hard in the
future or we're not going to

1061
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,240
have to work at all in the
future.

1062
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,240
That feels like a real like high
school freshman's idea of what,

1063
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,640
you know, a sort of perfect
world is supposed to be.

1064
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,360
I think we're going to need work
and purpose.

1065
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,960
I think that's a huge amount of
of a huge part of, of what has

1066
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,080
been satisfying to about
humanity.

1067
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:33,760
I mean, you know, we were
talking about this primitive

1068
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,440
brain, you know, lizard brain
and our higher functions, the

1069
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,160
higher functions.
One of the examples I always

1070
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,000
give around higher functions and
why we're it's so I'm so proud

1071
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,040
to be a modern human is all the
stuff we've built, you know, the

1072
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,320
highways and the cathedrals and
the bridges, like it's

1073
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,920
incredible and, and the pride
people take in having done that

1074
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:53,240
stuff.
So I just think we're going to

1075
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:56,480
need, we're absolutely going to
need that in the future.

1076
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,880
And if we don't have it, because
we think somehow people are

1077
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,200
going to be happier if they
don't have to do any work.

1078
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,320
I think misunderstands how our
economics work, as you know,

1079
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,320
Jeff, and misunderstands how
people find happiness in life.

1080
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,120
I'm surprised that Jeff hasn't
brought up that it.

1081
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:19,360
I mean, it seems to me that it's
the promises of a more relaxed

1082
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,600
society, but people are so
forgetful that just what was it

1083
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,640
four or five years ago, everyone
was locked inside their homes.

1084
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,880
They couldn't go to work.
They couldn't do anything,

1085
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,720
anything of enjoyment, which you
get do get a tremendous amount

1086
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:37,280
of satisfaction from work in
general, you know, whether

1087
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,320
that's working with your hands
or actually doing a job, right,

1088
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,880
whatever it might be.
But, you know, those sorts of

1089
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,840
things decreased and our mental
health issues spiked through the

1090
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,800
roof, right?
And so maybe, you know, the

1091
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,840
whole grandiose idea of like,
oh, you know, less, less time at

1092
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,960
work and more time for yourself
and all this sort of stuff, but

1093
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,280
with the the knowledge that it's
going to lead to insane mental

1094
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,760
health crisises.
And why why not?

1095
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,000
Right.
Look, you know, who would want

1096
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,120
that?
Well, you know, I don't know.

1097
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:11,280
But why?
You know?

1098
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,040
This is why, This is why it
bothers me so much how casually

1099
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,680
you have business leaders right
now saying, oh, we're just going

1100
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,080
to not need people, you know,
like they're the damage that

1101
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,640
that will do to society if they
really lay off people the way

1102
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,240
they seem to want to.
Whereas at the same time, like I

1103
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:30,680
was mentioning earlier, this guy
who says he could do away with

1104
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,160
lead poisoning and kids if you
gave him an AI system.

1105
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,600
He also has a program, I think
it's for the state of New

1106
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:37,600
Hampshire.
I can't remember.

1107
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:42,120
But basically he's got he's got
a system that's that takes new

1108
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,240
arrivals in the state of New
Hampshire, people who have just

1109
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:48,800
arrived there, whether they are
immigrants or removed there from

1110
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,800
another state.
And once they register, get a

1111
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:57,000
driver's license or whatever
this system pushes to them, Hey,

1112
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:58,520
would you like to be a bus
driver?

1113
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,760
Would you like to be, you know,
a sanitation worker?

1114
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,280
What about this, you know,
because they're all these jobs

1115
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,320
that the state of New Hampshire
needs filled that they can't

1116
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,040
fill snow plow drivers and all
this stuff, right?

1117
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,600
To my mind, like stop talking
about getting rid of paralegals

1118
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,920
and entry level bookkeeping and
all that stuff.

1119
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,480
Don't do that.
Don't wipe that out.

1120
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,280
We're going to need that job.
Instead, use AI to find people

1121
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,240
work, you know, use AI to pair
people with the services they

1122
00:56:23,240 --> 00:56:25,240
need.
That's what we're going to need

1123
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,160
much more than than you know, I
think I feel like the idea that

1124
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,480
we need to be more efficient
feels out of whack.

1125
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,040
That doesn't, I think we've got
no place where the top people in

1126
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,400
America are making enough money.
They, I think they should take a

1127
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,400
little break on the money making
and let's let's get some people

1128
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:43,840
some help.
Let's use the assistance for

1129
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,320
that instead.
There's definitely a concern for

1130
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,600
a lot of these jobs.
I feel like, you know, going

1131
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,120
away with automation and AI and
stuff, but I still, you know,

1132
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,560
I'm, I'm like a, I'm a blue
collar worker, right?

1133
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,600
Like, I go out and I do tasks
that I don't see.

1134
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,000
I think about this all the time,
right?

1135
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,760
I don't see how an Elon robot
can do half of the jobs that

1136
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,360
I've done in my life because
there's certain things that you

1137
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,400
just couldn't program into, you
know, to do some of these tasks.

1138
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,640
Now, when you're talking about,
you know, a lot of jobs, sure,

1139
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,120
right.
Artists, even musicians, like

1140
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,080
that's going away with some of
the new AI writers, you know,

1141
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,480
customer service, like a lot of
these things, retail, delivery

1142
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,040
services, taxis, like, yeah, all
that could go away.

1143
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,240
Waste management, like that can
all be automated.

1144
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,200
But when you start talking
about, you know, like service

1145
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,240
industry, like blue collar
service industry jobs, I don't

1146
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,560
see how like, a robot's going to
be able to do 90% of those jobs.

1147
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,080
So it could be a situation where
a lot of these people do lose

1148
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:47,640
work, but there's so much that's
going to be needed in order to

1149
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,480
like maintain the infrastructure
of society that just people just

1150
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,080
don't want to do, right?
Because it's not air

1151
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,840
conditioned, it's not
comfortable, it's hard work.

1152
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,440
So sure, you might have like
this this problem, but again,

1153
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,560
kind of looking out into the
future a little bit, it may

1154
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,280
become a thing where it's like
we don't actually have more free

1155
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:04,880
time.
We just have more people doing

1156
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,600
things to upkeep the
infrastructure that robots can't

1157
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,480
do.
Yeah, I hope that that is true,

1158
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:13,920
that there is, that there can
somehow be a move toward, let's

1159
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,520
say you know, enough people in
the trades that you could have

1160
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,000
that it could sort of balance
out.

1161
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,760
But one, one problem I have
heard a great deal.

1162
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:23,800
There's AI.
Was just talking to somebody the

1163
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,920
other day who's doing a bunch of
research right now around the

1164
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:32,880
thesis that AI could conceivably
do to women who never go to

1165
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:38,720
college what foreign offshoring
did to men who never went to

1166
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,280
college back in the years and
early 90s.

1167
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,920
Because for a huge number of
women who don't have a college

1168
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,440
education, there have been a
whole set of knowledge jobs,

1169
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:55,920
bookkeeping, clerical admin,
right, that can lead to a really

1170
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:00,440
good, reliable paycheck for a
long time and can lead to, you

1171
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,440
know, a real career that then
winds up even leading to a

1172
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,960
really stable retirement.
And these are the jobs that

1173
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,360
these companies are talking
about wiping out completely.

1174
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,600
And so that's something I really
worry about.

1175
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,920
I think you're right that like
there could be a push toward the

1176
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:16,120
trade.
You know, I was just talking to

1177
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:19,080
a guy the other day who's was
really lamenting that his

1178
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,160
daughter doesn't want to become
a lawyer or an engineer and she

1179
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:23,760
wants to be an artist.
And I was saying to him, like, I

1180
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,360
don't know, man, have you seen
what's going on with lawyers and

1181
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,120
engineers?
Like they are not they're

1182
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,400
getting fired left and right
because the entry level versions

1183
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,320
of those jobs are going away.
But, but a truly like

1184
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,960
disciplined, creative person
that could actually be a, you

1185
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,240
know, a valuable skill in a
whole new way.

1186
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,360
But I'm always like, I'm always
collecting like because I, I,

1187
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,720
you know, I worry about my own
ability to make money in the

1188
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:46,040
future.
Like, I really don't know, you

1189
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:47,880
know, and I, and I'm too old to
go become a journeyman

1190
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,320
apprentice electrician.
So I can't, you know that.

1191
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,480
And there's a lot of people in
my position who only have like

1192
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,800
15 years left in their working
lives who aren't going to be

1193
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:57,800
able to, to make a transition
like that.

1194
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,400
So there's a real, you know,
real trouble there.

1195
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,000
But I'm always keeping my eyes
open for like, like, what is a

1196
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:06,440
gig that that is AI proof?
I met a guy the other day at the

1197
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,080
airport and, and we're sitting
waiting for a flight together.

1198
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:09,960
And I was like, what are you
doing?

1199
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,760
He was like, I own a chain of
Barber shops And I was like,

1200
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,800
yes.
That's fantastic.

1201
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,520
Tell me about that.
You know, like, like so I, I

1202
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,560
agree with you, Jeff, I, I think
there will be a lot of jobs that

1203
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,280
won't get replaced, at least not
in the short term because it

1204
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,840
just doesn't make enough money.
Like it wouldn't be, it wouldn't

1205
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,400
be a cost savings to automate
that work.

1206
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,560
But you know, if you look at
the, at the original filings of

1207
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:38,040
Uber to the company, the
original stock filings all say

1208
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,640
from the very beginning, we're
going to automate this work as

1209
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,120
quick as we possibly can, right?
The driving Uber is going to be

1210
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,280
absolutely a robot's job in a
few years, because that's the,

1211
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,440
because they can do it more
cheaply that way.

1212
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,600
And so as long as they can do it
more cheaply by automating it,

1213
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,240
they will.
And I, and I think it and, and,

1214
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,640
and This is why I think one of
the ways, you know, where the

1215
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,000
subtitle of my book is how it's
Creating a World without Choices

1216
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,560
and How to Fight back.
We're seeing around the world,

1217
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,600
people are fighting back.
So AI sorry, in India, they have

1218
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,080
outlawed self driving cars
because a huge number of people

1219
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:09,560
in India make their job as
drivers.

1220
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,000
They have said it's illegal to
make to have robots do that

1221
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,880
because they know that it'll
just put so many people out of

1222
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:17,760
work.
And, you know, we may have to

1223
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:19,520
make that kind of choice here in
the United States, I think.

1224
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,920
Yeah, for sure getting the
trades people.

1225
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:26,520
You ain't going to catch no Elon
robot doing underwater welding.

1226
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,080
Not for a long time, you know.
That's funny.

1227
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,880
I bet.
I bet if you had Elon on, he'd

1228
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,480
be like, oh, I totally want to
make a robot that does that.

1229
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:36,320
It's funny too, because I'm
sitting here thinking about it

1230
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,880
from my job because I do
avionics work on airplanes.

1231
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:43,480
Yeah.
Certainly there wouldn't be a

1232
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,000
robot that would, you know, take
my job.

1233
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:51,320
However, they could use AI to
figure out, you know, why are

1234
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:56,000
half the lights not working on
this, you know, in this cabin of

1235
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,520
this aircraft and completely
eliminate the need to pay

1236
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,200
someone who specializes in.
Avionics, right?

1237
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,040
Has experience.
That's exactly right.

1238
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:05,480
So I mean, this has, this is,
that's right.

1239
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,320
That's right.
We've seen, yeah, they all say

1240
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,680
threw a ludicrous number at me
because they're like, yeah,

1241
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,360
well, you got, you know, 10
years of experience working at

1242
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,000
on avionics and that's a
specialty role.

1243
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,040
But if you could get a, you
know, a computer program to just

1244
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:23,000
find what's probably the
solution to fix this, then you

1245
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,440
could have any monkey with a
wrench, you know, figure it out

1246
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,640
and do it right, So.
And like, out of the little

1247
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:31,680
drawer comes the exact piece
machines that you need.

1248
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:33,720
And just put it here, turn it
three times.

1249
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,360
OK, Take lunch.
Yeah, that's right.

1250
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:37,800
That's right.
That's right.

1251
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,800
And we'll see.
Maybe so again, like, yeah,

1252
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,960
right.
The value of people has got to

1253
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,080
start getting calculated in a,
you know, form other than just

1254
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:49,400
how much money they can bring
in.

1255
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:53,520
We're going to need to start
defending purpose and human

1256
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:57,360
satisfaction, I think in some in
some new way.

1257
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,440
And we just don't have a lot of
history of that, you know?

1258
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:03,400
Yeah.
Well, ready for a wild question?

1259
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,360
Yeah, let's go.
Do you, I don't know if you've,

1260
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:12,400
you've dove into this at all,
but you think that there's any

1261
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:21,320
connection between AI and, and
the recent massive increase of

1262
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:27,520
UFO stuff that's going on right
now, whether it be whether it be

1263
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,720
through mainstream media,
through independent outlets like

1264
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:35,840
us or anything and everything.
That's really interesting.

1265
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,320
I don't know if I believe so.
I'll just say I don't know

1266
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,240
anything about it fundamentally
like I, I, I, I hadn't, I didn't

1267
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:43,440
know about the uptick in
reports.

1268
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:50,000
That's interesting.
I, I think that there is a new,

1269
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:53,720
we're in a new information
ecosystem where every single

1270
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:59,920
person is kind of a self
appointed watchdog for weird

1271
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:03,720
stuff.
And that is, I think in a lot of

1272
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,520
cases good.
There are a lot of good things

1273
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:11,080
that have come out of that And
and there are also places in

1274
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:17,000
which that creates just an
incredible, you know, ecosystem

1275
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:20,320
for dangerous conspiracy
conspiracy theorists that that,

1276
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,040
you know, get us into trouble as
a society.

1277
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:27,880
I think.
So I wonder if like if I were

1278
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:32,200
to, if I had to guess, I would
guess that it is, you know, it

1279
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:39,360
might be a function of just how
easy it is to, to report

1280
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:44,960
evidence of a thing and have
that thing analyzed and

1281
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,800
amplified by lots and lots and
lots of people.

1282
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:52,000
It's, you know, one of the
things that we've seen a lot of

1283
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,800
in the last, you know, like
what, what we've seen time and

1284
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,600
again is that when you can
measure a thing more

1285
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:01,200
effectively, the rates of that
thing go up because we can

1286
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,480
measure it more.
And I just wonder if it's just

1287
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,000
because there are so many people
with cameras filming the night

1288
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,360
sky that you're either seeing,
maybe they're really seeing

1289
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,320
something or at the very least
the incidents of people who

1290
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,800
think they have seen something
has gotten a lot higher.

1291
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:16,800
Yeah.
I don't know.

1292
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:19,520
I'm speculating here, but that's
that would be my guess.

1293
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:21,280
We.
Can get in some real brain rot

1294
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,880
topics here, we can tell you
now.

1295
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:28,080
I asked because one of the
primary theories going around

1296
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:34,960
right now is that UFOs is AI
Incarnate, like a physical form

1297
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:39,840
of AI creating either itself to
move around inside the physical

1298
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:44,280
space, which also delves into,
you know, time travel and and

1299
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:49,240
other real fringe topics, right?
I mean, we, we dive into all of

1300
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:50,480
it here.
We really do.

1301
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,720
So I was just wondering if you
had heard anything like that or

1302
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,480
had a had a point.
I haven't the only the only

1303
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:02,200
perspective I'll offer on on
UFOs and extraterrestrial life

1304
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,400
that has always stuck with me is
a thing that years and years and

1305
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,800
years ago team of academics who
study space were explaining to

1306
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:14,640
me about the sheer size of space
and also how old the universe

1307
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,280
is.
And as a result.

1308
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,320
So there's this, there's this
thing, the Fermi paradox, which

1309
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,840
you probably know about, which
is right and Enrico Fermi,

1310
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,400
right, one of the fathers of the
atomic bomb.

1311
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,160
He just would idly chat with his
lunch group and one of the

1312
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,160
things he would always ask is
where is everybody?

1313
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,880
Where is where are where is
alien life elsewhere in the in

1314
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,120
the world, in the universe,
because clearly there's so much

1315
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,440
potential for it to be there.
Why isn't it out there?

1316
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,640
Well, and the best answer anyone
has come up with that makes

1317
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:45,680
mathematical sense to answer the
Fermi paradox is it's not that

1318
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:49,000
there isn't extraterrestrial
life out there, it's that the

1319
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:53,600
universe is so old and the
amount of time in the universe

1320
01:06:53,600 --> 01:07:00,560
is so vast that the chance that
out of all of these stars, 2

1321
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:05,280
civilizations would exist at the
same time is very mathematically

1322
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:07,400
small.
So the idea that in all this

1323
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:12,600
darkness that a, that our, the
single match flame that is our

1324
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:16,280
civilization, right?
That that that lights and is

1325
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:22,760
extinguished instantly in the
time scale of the universe, the

1326
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:27,000
chance that two of those would
be lit together at the same time

1327
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,360
such that they overlap and
actually see one another is

1328
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:35,560
incredibly tiny.
So for me, that's been my,

1329
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:38,360
that's something I've hung on to
in my career for a long time.

1330
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,800
When when people talk about
extraterrestrial life is I think

1331
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:44,120
to myself, it makes absolute
sense to me that it's out there.

1332
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,000
It just may have already
happened or hasn't happened yet

1333
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:49,400
such that we would ever
encounter it.

1334
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,320
Yeah, you've actually touched on
multiple answers to the the

1335
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,960
Fermi paradox there.
I I always like to plug books.

1336
01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:01,360
Again, if anybody's interested
in a really good read for

1337
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:05,360
answers to the Fermi paradox,
there is a book by Steven Webb.

1338
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,120
It's called If the Universe is
Teeming with Aliens, Where is

1339
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,760
everybody?
75 solutions to the Fermi

1340
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:12,160
paradox.
Oh, cool.

1341
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:16,760
And it's, it's probably one of
my most read books.

1342
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,479
I, I constantly go to it and use
it for reference.

1343
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:23,640
Cool.
And then, of course, just to tie

1344
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:30,720
it all in the 76th solution was
actually a recent thing, which

1345
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,279
is the, the, the one that's
brought up in the third body

1346
01:08:33,279 --> 01:08:37,920
problem series by author of 6
and you where he talks about

1347
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:43,040
the, the dark forest theory.
That's that's another one that's

1348
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,520
not covered in Steven Webb's
book, but that's also very

1349
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,319
interesting, which you, you
didn't necessarily touch on that

1350
01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:49,760
one.
You, you more or less there.

1351
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:53,279
There's a, there's a answer
called the island, right?

1352
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,080
Where we're just alone on an
island and all we have is

1353
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,080
basically, if you look at the
earth, all we have is the

1354
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,240
materials here on the earth.
We don't have the ways of

1355
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,240
manufacturing what we need to be
able to bend space-time and

1356
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:11,439
travel vest distances with it
all within one lifespan, right?

1357
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,160
So where we are is where we're
going to be at.

1358
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:18,040
Distances are too, too far.
Time is too limited.

1359
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:21,000
Unless you can go through and
somehow manipulate one of

1360
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,479
Einstein's theories of
relativity via, you know,

1361
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:27,240
bending of space or black hole
manipulation, you're not going

1362
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,920
to really do much.
And even that is theoretical at

1363
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,080
best.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right,

1364
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:33,840
right.
I'll just leave you with this,

1365
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,880
an idea that that I started the
book with, which is the idea of

1366
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,920
the generation ship, which is
this concept that gets kicked

1367
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,000
around at NASA.
And there's a couple of science

1368
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,399
fiction books that have have
taken this idea on.

1369
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:49,560
And it's the whole idea that so,
so the nearest habitable planet

1370
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,359
to us, the one that they think
we actually could walk around on

1371
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:55,400
and, and possibly breathe the
atmosphere is called Proxima

1372
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:59,320
Centauri B.
And it's only like 4.3 light

1373
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:01,520
years away.
It's right down the block in

1374
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:05,120
terms of, of, you know, of, of
being nearby.

1375
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:10,080
The trouble is that 4.3 light
years away at the current speeds

1376
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:13,840
we can travel in space ends up
being something like it's more

1377
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,560
than 100,000 years.
It's like 200,000 years.

1378
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:20,360
So the concept is that you'd
have to have people on that ship

1379
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:26,240
live and die and have babies and
continue to create a culture

1380
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:28,760
that just lives right on that
ship for that whole period of

1381
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,040
time.
It's like 2000 human

1382
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:32,840
generations.
And so I've used this as like

1383
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:35,800
it, my example of like where
we're at on this planet is like

1384
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,720
that amount of time is
essentially the entire time that

1385
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,560
we've been that species that
walked off of the continent of

1386
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:44,880
Africa and, and, you know,
became the modern selves with

1387
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,760
our better brains.
You know, the possibility of

1388
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:53,520
actually living all that time on
a, a single ship is crazy.

1389
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,080
And instead it makes me think we
are on that ship.

1390
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,400
Like this is our ship.
This is the one we get.

1391
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,040
We're on it already.
And we got to figure out how to

1392
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,680
do a better job of thinking in
advance, thinking in

1393
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:05,680
generations.
You know, you guys were asking

1394
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:07,800
about like what's going to
happen in a few generations,

1395
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:09,560
right?
Like, like, we need to think

1396
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:10,920
that way.
We're not thinking that way

1397
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:12,280
right now.
We're thinking in financial

1398
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,880
quarters and we need to be
thinking a lot longer than that.

1399
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,960
It seems to be.
Proxima Centauri is, is very

1400
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,880
interesting just for food for
thought for people who are

1401
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:24,520
listening.
Proxima Centauri was once

1402
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,160
considered a dual star system.
And then they they end up

1403
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:30,400
finding 1/3 traveling star that
actually orbited the two that

1404
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:34,000
are orbiting themselves.
And then, yeah, that's I think

1405
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,000
that's fascinating.
Yeah, yeah.

1406
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,240
Someone in the chat said that
and then when the ship gets

1407
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:41,120
there it's just a bunch of
inbred.

1408
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:42,920
Totally.
I saw that.

1409
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:47,080
So I have a, I have a like half
written screenplay in which

1410
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:50,680
that's the exactly the concept.
Did you guys ever watch in the

1411
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:52,120
name of the The Name of the
Rose?

1412
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:53,760
It was an early Sean Connery
movie.

1413
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,200
It's a great movie about
medieval.

1414
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,320
It's a murder mystery set in a
medieval monastery.

1415
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,960
And everybody is super inbred.
So they're all just like, you

1416
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:05,320
know, and you would just imagine
at the very end of that trip, as

1417
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,320
they're approaching the planet,
they're all just going to be

1418
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:10,400
like so messed up, you know,
it's so gross.

1419
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:12,680
They're going to look like.
Sloth from The Goonies.

1420
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,840
And they're all like, naked
because all the, all the, you

1421
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,000
know, clothing is melted away.
You know, like, that's right.

1422
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:19,920
That's right.
Exactly.

1423
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:22,600
It'd be a messy party.
Well, was there anything that

1424
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:27,080
you came on to try and
specifically talk about today so

1425
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:30,960
we're not wasting all of the
time on on fantastical stuff

1426
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:33,360
about UFOs and spacecraft?
No, we've done it to you guys.

1427
01:12:33,480 --> 01:12:36,080
I really, I love hearing your
perspectives on, you know, the

1428
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:39,320
macroeconomic trends here and
on, you know, whether these,

1429
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:42,880
these systems really can replace
jobs as we have them right now.

1430
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:44,360
No, I think we've done a really
good job.

1431
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,640
I would say, you know, if you
don't mind me promoting my own

1432
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:47,080
stuff.
Yeah.

1433
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:49,720
The ripcurrent.com is where
people can sign up for my

1434
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:51,120
podcast if they'd like to
listen.

1435
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,960
I do a weekly interview with
somebody who, you know, the RIP

1436
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,640
current is named for, like the
invisible forces that I think

1437
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:58,840
are kind of working on us right
now.

1438
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:03,720
And that stuff like, you know,
the, that's like it, that's,

1439
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:08,480
that's, you know, all these
weird political trends moving us

1440
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:10,280
here and there.
It's economic forces.

1441
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:13,040
So each, each week is a
different sort of expert in

1442
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:16,160
something along those lines.
So it's, I think it's very

1443
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:17,800
similar to what you guys are
thinking about here.

1444
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:19,440
And I really appreciate the
opportunity to be here.

1445
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,240
No, it's awesome.
This was this was a blast,

1446
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:24,960
really.
Yeah, good episode for sure.

1447
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:28,040
Appreciate you coming on.
Thanks guys, I really appreciate

1448
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:29,440
your time.
Hope to do it again.

1449
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:33,280
Absolutely anytime I'm going to
go ahead and sign this off if

1450
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,560
you could hang out for, you
know, two or three more minutes

1451
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:37,160
afterwards.
That way I can just make sure

1452
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:40,520
all of your audio and video are
are sent over.

1453
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,920
Usually it's it's really quick,
but every once in a while that

1454
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:45,880
just takes a few extra minutes.
I've been there.

1455
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:49,000
I'll absolutely stick around.
All right, Jacob, is there

1456
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:53,320
anything else that you would
like to plug or anything other

1457
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:56,280
than the RIP current?
Again, the ripcurrent.com come

1458
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:59,400
check us out if you can.
For some reason, my, my biggest

1459
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:01,720
following is on Tiktok.
I have a huge Tiktok following,

1460
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:04,200
which is for an old guy, it
makes no sense to me at all, but

1461
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:07,120
I really enjoy that community
And so come check me out there.

1462
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:10,160
That's where I'm most active
trying to grow my YouTube, but

1463
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:12,760
I, I don't even, I'm not doing a
smart job of that.

1464
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,080
So I got to, I got to shift
toward that if I can.

1465
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:17,080
But yeah, ripcurrent.com, that's
why I'm mostly.

1466
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:21,240
We do have one question from the
chat that popped up the more

1467
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:22,920
asked what got him in the
conspiracies.

1468
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:25,200
How long ago?
You know, so when you're the,

1469
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:28,400
you're the editor in chief of
Popular Science magazine, you

1470
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:31,880
really can't, you really can't
avoid them.

1471
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:34,160
You know, you'll have people,
it's very interesting.

1472
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:36,720
You'll have people full of, you
know, Popular Science.

1473
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,200
The readership is, you know, it
tends to be a lot of military

1474
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:41,080
people.
We got a lot of Navy, you know,

1475
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:43,880
I think a lot of people, you
know, you have people serving on

1476
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,440
a submarine, right, who are who
are at sea for a long time.

1477
01:14:46,440 --> 01:14:48,800
And that's kind of one of their
only forms of entertainment is

1478
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:50,720
magazines.
So they'd have us with them.

1479
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:52,160
And so just a really interesting
group.

1480
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:54,720
You know, a lot of people would
come to us with a lot of various

1481
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,320
interesting questions.
And so I think that got me, that

1482
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,440
got me going on it.
And then you combine that within

1483
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:03,280
all this reporting I've done
around kind of, you know, why

1484
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:06,520
certain ideas really stick in
the brain, and that brings you

1485
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:08,400
into contact with a lot of folks
who think about conspiracy

1486
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:10,760
theories as well.
Cool, You put a smart guy in

1487
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,040
front of this information.
It's just natural and you just

1488
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:15,160
become a conspiracy theorist and
so.

1489
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:17,840
That's right.
Well, good.

1490
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,880
We'll, I'll make sure to take
you in all the TikTok clips that

1491
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,960
we get from this episode and.
Appreciate it.

1492
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:24,360
We'll spread, we'll spread the
word.

1493
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:25,920
I can't wait for your book to
come in.

1494
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:28,920
I'm sure I'll have a ton of
questions afterwards.

1495
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:30,960
So if you ever want to come back
on the show, you're more than

1496
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:32,440
welcome, man.
Sounds great.

1497
01:15:32,440 --> 01:15:33,480
Yeah, Just call me up.
I'm around.

1498
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,680
All right, guys.
Jake, you got anything for Jake?

1499
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:39,600
No, but this, that this whole
thing has been tripping me out a

1500
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:40,840
little bit.
Jake.

1501
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:43,240
Jake.
Between this and your lazy guys,

1502
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:44,840
you must be having a trippy
evening.

1503
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,640
Yeah, I'm ready for bed too.
It's my bedtime.

1504
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:49,760
I got to go work on planes
tomorrow.

1505
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:52,760
Good, good.
But no, it was a it was a cool

1506
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:55,440
episode.
Definitely not what I expected.

1507
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:57,360
Yeah, I would love to have you
back on.

1508
01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:01,320
That was interesting to hear
your insights.

1509
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:05,880
Sick thanks guys and.
Another Californian is cool too.

1510
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:07,440
I'm from Fresno.
Oh, see.

1511
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:08,840
Nice.
Awesome, awesome.

1512
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:12,480
And then next time, we'll make
sure we have some some even

1513
01:16:12,480 --> 01:16:14,920
Wilder questions, Something to
make you real good, right?

1514
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:16,240
Yeah, you weren't easy on me
tonight.

1515
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:18,920
Yeah.
All right, well, that has been

1516
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:20,840
another episode of the Infinite
Rabbit Hole podcast.

1517
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:24,600
Until next time, travelers,
we'll see you in the next fork

1518
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:26,440
in the path of the Infinite
Rabbit Hole.

1519
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:27,480
Bye, buddy.
Goodnight.

1520
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,080
Hey everybody, thanks for
checking out the Infinite Rabbit

1521
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:36,160
Hole podcast.
If you're looking for more of

1522
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:39,320
our stuff, head on over to
infiniterabbithole.com where you

1523
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,040
can find links to all the
podcast players that we are

1524
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:45,560
available on and even our video
platforms such as TikTok and

1525
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,440
YouTube.
While you're there, make sure to

1526
01:16:47,440 --> 01:16:50,440
check out all the links for our
socials and hit that follow so

1527
01:16:50,440 --> 01:16:53,520
you know when all the new stuff
from our podcast comes out.

1528
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,400
And until next time, travelers,
we'll see you right here and the

1529
01:16:57,400 --> 01:16:59,880
next fork in the path of the
infinite rabbit hole.