148. Ozark Howler 2

0:02 Imagine that this line represents a time to the present 1985 Future Past prior to this point in time somewhere in the. Past the timeline skewed into this tangent, creating a law. Today 1985, alternate to you need Einstein. From reality. Everyone else, welcome back to the Infinite Rabbit Hole Podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy, and today we're diving into part two of our coverage on the Ozark Heller.

0:45 Same host, same topic, Jake. How you doing man? Man, it has been a long week since last episode. Let me tell you, I've even changed my shirt. That Lauren knows all the secrets now. Yeah, it's all done in one night. Yeah, right. They're good for a whole month. 4 episodes in one night. I think we've done a three parter before and that was the worst experience I've had. Podcasting just yeah, we've I think it's like 6 hours straight of podcasting and I was just like, I just want to die. All right next to the bat. CJ Ooh, you changed your name.

1:26 It is no longer CJ His name's fat ass now. So, fat ass, how you doing? I'll do it. All right. That's what you are. Hot Man did to see that. Good guy. He did that to himself. I didn't come up with that. So whoever's commenting on our show saying that we're mean to each other, he did that himself. He's fat. Shaming it. You listen, listen, I'm fat and I'll call whoever I want fat. Especially myself. Yeah, me too. And then the guest who probably thinks that we're so fucked up, she's like, yeah, I'm done listening to this stupid show. I I've listened to pretty much the entire show in the span of a month.

2:10 I I think I already knew y'all were messed up. You know, I I I miss doing this. I miss like, talking shit to each other. It's fun. I know. Yeah, but then you fired me and Jake, so I did not. I quit. No. So did CJ. So did CJ. You fucking quit too. I fired Andrew, but I didn't fire you. And. You fired Wes. What? A bunch of quitters and I fired Wes. And you fired Jeff and Kenzar. Okay. No, I didn't fire Jeff and Kenzar. You didn't fire them, you laid them. I I love Jeff and Kenzar that. Like if I ever want to get back to the infinite rabbit hole how it was, they're coming back 100. All, yeah, furloughed.

2:56 I was trying something new. What you got great feedback of that actually. Little thing too, is I'm going to put out a poll tomorrow. Like people are going to be able to date this recording. Put out a poll tomorrow whether or not people want me to do a solo documentary episode with this to go along with this episode. You know, because I've got a lot of really good responses about the documentary, the new style documentary episodes. Because the Ozark howler is so interesting, you're gonna need a third episode documentary style about it. Fucking H It's just so he can hear himself talk. That's it. That's it.

3:37 That's it. That's the only thing. But I mean if if if if not enough people care, then I'm I'm not going to even bother the time to edit it, just edit this. I'm going to vote 10 times. No, I got you, man. I'm here for you then. I'll vote 10 times yes to cancel that out. Yeah, I'm getting pod chasing right now. One of my bots. Hold on. No, Get out of here. I'm going to leave 31 star reviews on the podcast. All of them say documentaries suck. We're finally starting to recover, man. Don't do that. I've given you a five star review from the code name Benjamin. You even put it on Facebook. You're like, thank you so much, Ben. And I'm like, you're welcome.

4:23 Was it you? Yeah, that was what my name was supposed to be before my so my before I was adopted, my last name was Schumann, and it was actually Jacob Matthias Schumann. But the thought of my name, my mom was thinking, was Benjamin Jacob Schumann. Until my older brother said mom, his initials would be Bj's. And she's like, he's like, Oh yeah, probably shouldn't do that. So yeah, just go by Ben every once in a while. That's good. That's funny. That's that's funny. I laughed. You got two, five star reviews for me out of the three. Yeah, I did as encouragement.

5:09 Great. Thanks man. Yeah, I got you. All right, I'm gonna log into my account. Digital assassin? Fuck you, dude. No. How dare you say that name? I I do think that that is somebody we know. I just have a fucking feeling. About it too. It has to be. It has to be. It's Grayson. I hope not. I I hope it's not somebody we know, because that's still it's. Katie No, she doesn't even know how to leave a review. All right, all right, let's get into some modern signings on this thing. And she's a for real assassin. She is.

5:50 I'm actually on like my third clone. This is not the real me. I've never hung up a phone so fast in my life. Then when I got in trouble for calling Jeremy. What? The very first time I ever called Jeremy's phone, he was watching a TV show with Katie. And she, like, flipped out on me. And I was like, I'm so sorry to hung up the phone. And she's she's a she's a special one, man, let me tell you, she's feisty. Yes, she is alright. A man by the name of Ted Eccleston witnessed the call of the creature in 1992 while camping in the Ozark National Forest, who described it as starting off with a high pitched sound and continued on a spectrum of a constantly deepening tone.

6:38 In 2007, the town of Forsyth, MO, had a rash of sightings and audible episodes in which strange sounds rang through the local area. Laura Pour witnessed the howler from the safety of her car in 2008. She described the creature as looking initially like a big ball of black fur and was the size of a bear with longer fur all over its body and a long tail. It simply darted across the road as she came to a stop and she carried on with her drive, nervous and a bit scared. A young woman by the name of Michaela from Ozark, MO, wrote about her sighting of the creature on June 18th, 2009. Her and her mother were driving when her mother yelled Michaela look. As she raised her gaze, she saw a large black creature that she described as quote like a deer and a dog had a one night stand. She continues to tell that growing up in the area you hear about the creature, but she never thought that she would actually see it.

7:34 In 2011 it seemed to be making its living in Newton County, Arkansas, as it was seen several times during the year. In 2014, another flap of sightings would ensue in September in the area between Theodora and Isabel, Missouri, and in 2015 it appeared to have migrated to Devil's Den State Park. In February 2016, a man witnessed the creature near Lake Springdale and Benton County, Arkansas. His description of the beast was quote this mammal was the size of a bear, very fast moving, mostly blackish and grayish, and scared me and my son tremendously. In 2017, Martha and Max Winchell were hiking through the Irish wilderness of Mark Twain National Forest when the creature appeared ahead of them on the pathway. The couple from Kansas didn't know exactly what to do, so they slowly moved away and decided it was best to just leave. As they approached their car, a loud shrieking roar rang through the area and the couple soon learned that the area was a known stopping ground of the Ozark Howler. In 2018, Derek and Sharon Gilbert claimed that they witnessed the Howler attacked their cats in their backyard of the house.

8:48 Sharon described it as huge, black, stocky and nimble and Derek claims have seen it multiple times since July 27th, 2018. Terry Shroud and Dean Grain spotted the creature while walking at night with their flashlights in the Marguerite Bray conversation area near Rolla, MO. They described that when they first saw it, it must have been in the prone position as the only thing they saw was a low lying black silhouette. They watched as the creature rose up to about 6 feet tall and looked very much like a bear, but had movements which reminded them more of a cat. They were stunned that when it moved away it leaped up about 1520 feet up a ridgeline making just the slightest sounds. A hunter in the summer of 2019 described his experience with a howler near Jasper AR as he was driving on Hwy. 256 quote What shocked me the most and what was most memorable was the horns coming out of its forehead.

9:51 He went on to describe it was very much like a cat. In 2020 the creature was reported to have been making quite the ruckus with its screams by Ginger Blue. Missouri, one such witness to the sounds described it as a quote High pitched whining in a distant deep yell, the same man claimed to record the sound, which was eventually scared off or killed by a volley of gunfire. Also in 2020, sightings along Route 176 near Merriam Woods in Missouri claimed that the creature was seen soaking wet and clear weather. Side note, this may be key information as it might actually lend us some info that this creature may spend time in the water.

10:35 Not, of course, as an aquatic creature, but at least enjoying a swim or maybe even making dens in underwater caverns of some sorts. Another interesting case from 2020 includes a road crew that reported a rather large number of unknown prints around the work site in the morning before work and IN2021A Howler was spotted feasting on white Pelicans as they made their annual migration across the area by the Lake of the Ozarks. Before we get too excited about these stories, I would like to point out that world renowned cryptozoologist Lauren Coleman did go on record as stating that most of the sightings that are out there and many of the ones that we talked about all come from the same person on various websites and forums but with different usernames.

11:25 How he determined that, I have no idea. But I I do respect Lauren Coleman's work and who he is. So I mean that that does have some weight for me. What do you guys think? Very interesting, very interesting. Michaela definitely saw Man Bear Pig 100%. And nice flap usage. We should tell Ashers we will not. You know, I'm less likely and not in all circumstances like with Bigfoot, I'm kind of like, even in the middle as far as like old sightings, new sightings. Because there's, you know, seems to be a decent amount of photographic and video evidence starting to come out now.

12:11 But when it comes to other types of cryptids, I'm less inclined to believe more recent accounts or accounts because with lack of photographic evidence. Now I'm not saying that I have my phone out recording at all times so that if anything jumps out at me while I'm on a hike or whatever it is, I'll have it recorded. But when someone like I want to say it was the the couple, the couple that it like came back over and over again. I had one person key my truck and I got some blink, you know, Bluetooth cameras and installed them in front of my house where my driveway is.

12:54 If I saw something crazy like that and then again I'd put out some cameras, it wouldn't cost me really anything and just have them recording. So if it came back again I'd be able to capture it. So when there's, you know, things like that, I'm less likely to believe it, especially since we're in this age in this realm of videography and and photographs and all that sort of stuff. But then you said at the end that. Where all of these accounts came from? The same person with different usernames now, most of them. So Lauren Coleman, he does a lot of books, a lot of books and he does a lot of forums and stuff. He's a very, very, he's probably the world, the most world famous script as well.

13:34 They're just still alive. I mean you had the Bernard Wavelman and and a couple others out there that are very popular, but they all passed away. Lauren Coleman, when he speaks, the community listens and he I don't know exactly which ones he was talking about, but he did say that all of them were from the same poster by different different names. I I guess the only way you can confirm that is by IP address, right? Lauren, jump in because I think this is more in your realm of things. Technology, computers and I, unless it's Excel, we do not get along. So I thought, that's not engineer, you know. Anyways.

14:22 So in order to actually confirm that, he would actually need that person to admit, like verbally admit that they were the same person on multiple accounts, or you would have to have some sort of legal precedence to file what's called a John Doe lawsuit with an ISP to obtain. Information based on where things came from IP wise and whatnot. I don't unless he did. Something illegal he could have done. Something illegal and hacked him, maybe. Now I know Lauren Coleman takes cryptozoology extremely, extremely serious. He has a he has a really popular museum in Maine. It is the International Cryptozoology Museum. And it's, I mean, the guy.

15:04 He is very passionate about this. His books are fantastic. So I mean, maybe he did take a little offense to people coming out with so much shit that he thought was complete BS. He could also have interviewed the guy and been like for one of his accounts and then found out to be complete BS and then been like, all right, cut the crap, you know what's going on maybe. Definitely could have. And then make the guy admit it. I don't know if you. Missed the legal pics or it didn't happen? There are photos of a supposed Ozark tower and. I'm not horribly inclined to believe the validity of them, but I do think it's interesting. The one account that Jeremy was going over about it looked like a mix between a dog and a deer, because that's exactly what that photo looks like to me.

15:55 It looks like some kind of dog thylacine looking thing with some antlers on it. That looks like a fucked up Fiji mermaid version, like somebody took multiple animals and glued them together. Are you looking at the pictures? Yeah, it looks. Like, like it's it looks exactly like the same that like the same president as a Fiji mermaid. Like they took multiple animals, taxidermized them and then glued them together. But this is walking around. Like there's actually a video clip of this thing walking. This is, it's not just still frame so. You can you can I I you could put mechanical. You can't glue antlers on a dog. I don't think that's a dog, man. I really do that. Looks like a weasel. It looks like it it looks. What the hell?

16:37 It does look very thylacine. Ish. It doesn't looks like a marsupial the with that tail. Looks like a mutt. But you could easily. You could shave a dog's tail, yeah, but then not that long. It's not gonna be that long. Look at that, put mechanical parts in there and and remote control it to walk around like. The legs look like a dog's. Yeah, but OK, so. It's got the same backwards knees or the other tall ankles. It does go into the pad like like Lauren was saying. So did the the Tasmanian tiger. Same thing it had. I mean, the thing looked caned from the outside, everything about it looked caned, But it's a marsupial.

17:18 Sure, Jake, you got these pictures up. Yeah, I'm I'm looking at just pictures on Google. It looks like a dog with antlers. I I don't think so. And a shaved tail. I don't. And I don't know when these pictures came out. I meant to look and see, like when they came out. I'm seeing dates as far back as 2015. I mean, you can't do the AI thing because that wasn't around back then. So you'd have to go with something physical like what CJ was saying, where you have to dress up a dog. So I think that's a body of a dog that's the head of a badger antlers or something. But I don't think that's a dog. And the tail, The tail is very. Rat like.

18:03 Yeah, but I mean like, you could get like tails like that off of like, shit. I can't remember what the animal's called. I'm picturing it in my head, but. That's awesome. I think here's the thing, man, is I think you it's just too much work. That's too much work. I mean, I know a lot of people. Going into it with the Fiji Mermaid, multiple Fiji mermaids, Fiji mermaid was bullshit from the get go. Everybody knew that. Come on man. I mean there there was no old man. I don't think so. I I mean, I can't say that it's complete bullshit until. Shit. Shit, I'm leaving that in. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm trying to watch the video of this thing walking around. But then again, you know, I'm a Christian guy and I believe in the awesomeness of God's creation, and we would be having this exact same, you know, conversation if no one knew what a platypus was and was like, this is ridiculous, this is complete horse crap.

19:02 Look at this kind of duck bill. You know, like a was it a a Beaver tail on that stuff? And Poison Spurs is ridiculous, so who knows? I don't know. So wait, where's this video of this thing walking around? Because I'm trying to find. Yeah, I saw a clip of it, man. I don't know where the hell I saw it. Because, I mean with today's CGI or even like our modern day robotics, it wouldn't even be that expensive to make something that size walk and look somewhat natural. I just, I'm, you know, like, I don't know, man. I'm just looking at the structure of this thing. I'm getting a lot of alerts about you, CJ About me? Yeah, Participant. Fat Ass is having a problem.

19:44 Yes, he is. Ohh yeah it's. Probably because I have. It's probably because I have YouTube on. Ohh yeah, maybe. There we go. 'Cause I was trying to find the video of it walking. I couldn't find it alright. I thought, but the yeah, the picture it no, I'm going Fiji mermaid that's there's there's no way that that's a legitimate taxidomized animal or whatever. I am not throwing this away, that's my opinion, no. But it's so small too. Does it get bigger? Well, this could be a pup. Could be fake too. Could be. It doesn't feel stocky enough to be a pup. Like if you think of things like dogs or even like cats, their proportions are different. They'd have bigger heads.

20:28 They'd have bigger paws. Yeah, if it really gets as massive as they say. You know, I'm not, I'm not really gonna disregard size. Like, how many times have people been scared of something and then severely hyperbolized the size of the animal. Right. So that's true. They could have seen this, Like, you know, it could have snarled at them, been real scary. Especially they've been like drinking or something. And they're like, Oh my God. And then and. Like, yeah, but how does how does that thing go Like, that's the size of like? A cat maybe? Like a Jack Russell or something, Yeah. How do you go from that to bare size? I don't know. Fishermen go from proportion. Fishermen go from minnow to 15 pound walleye bass hybrids in.

21:12 The. Course of three retellings of a story. Like, it's just it's just how things happen. People. People like fantastic tales. What about the veteran that got stabbed? Did it. Sic him like the the rabbit from Monty Python and just gouge him with the with one of its antlers. Right. Yeah. Maybe that's they need the Holy Hand Grenade. That's what happened. The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. All right. You guys ready to move on? Yeah, all in, All in all, I did not research the video. I did not research the pictures. I don't know. I mean, it could have already came out that it's a complete hoax. I don't know. I haven't really done it.

21:54 But from the outside looking in, if it is a hoax, I think it's a really good one, personally. All right. What? Oh, this is the one I think you guys are gonna really dig. I like this one. What's in the name? The Ozark Howler has been known by various names throughout the history of its rain. According to author Ralph Toller. They include names like The Beast, Black Howler, Night Howler, Mountain Howler, Devil cat, Nightshade Bear, Catawampus, Whistling Wampus, Midnight Whistler, and Whoohoo. Some of these names give hints to what this creature may actually be in the early build of the Appalachian culture. In lore, a legend told by the European settlers, referred to as the Catawampus or the Wampus Cat as it became known when the western push took place, was known as a large feline creature that would hide out in trees and attack those that were unaware of its presence. The name Catawampus is a play on the name originally given to the Catamount, another name for a Mountain Lion. The telltale sign of this creature was the screams that were heard throughout the hollers and hills of old Appalachia.

23:05 The creature has a few paranormal and supernatural aspects to it as well, but I'm going to have to save that for a future episode because trust me, the Appalachian region of the US has enough mysterious cats for its own episode or two. Among researchers of the Ozark Howler, the most common explanation is that either the legend of the Catawampus migrated W with the expansion into the US interior and over the Mississippi River, or this is a creature within the same family as the Wampus from Appalachia. The similarities are uncanny except for a few physical descriptions, but the way they act, sound and their habits are spot on with each other. But the area had a few other groups of settlers that seemed to have an impact on the build of the legend, those being the British and the French.

23:52 In many cases the howler has a supernatural ability to either throw its voice and or disappear right in front of someone's eyes. This is something that we see in British lore in the form of the phantom black dogs. We have done multiple episodes on in the past, so please if there is interest, go check those episodes out. Another interesting thing what demons. Another interesting thing about this creature is that it also shows up aspects of the French werewolf known as the Lugoro. There are a few accounts of the Howler and many accounts of the Wampus having shapeshifting abilities. And if you are familiar with a map of the United States, you will notice that just South of Arkansas is the state of Louisiana State that is born from French culture and lore, which also has a forum of the French Lucaroo known locally as the Rugeroo. But unlike the Lugaroo, the Rugeroo is thought to not be so much of A shapeshifter and rather an individual of the new cryptozoology heavyweight, the Dog Man. So no matter where it is that you look in history, the Howler shows aspects of local lore from three cultures in which the majority of the area was originally built. Does that mean that it's not real? No, not at all.

25:12 It needs to be understood that when someone attempts to describe something, the only way they do so is with words or descriptions that they are already made aware of. For example, when Bigfoot was first talked about here in America, it was referred to as either a wild man or an abominable snowman. Why? Because that is what we had for reference at the time. The legend of the Yeti or the Abominable Snowman is older than the United States itself. And what would a modern man see if they saw an upright walking humanoid in the forest, covered from head to toe with hair, with absolutely no reference to Bigfoot at all? A wild man?

25:52 Or if they had heard the stories, an abominable snowman. So no, this does not mean that it is fake. In my book, this makes it more interesting to me that people from different cultures were arriving in one geographical location around the same time, and we're seeing the same thing and using their own words to try to describe it. So what do you guys think? I've heard of the Wampus Cat before, and I've also heard of the Black Panthers in Arkansas and those that believe in those, and I'm wondering if there's a correlation between this and the Black Panthers. Aren't aren't black Panthers just like dark Jaguars?

26:37 So it's a melanistic trait. Sorry. Go ahead, Lauren. Yeah, they're usually melanistic leopards or Jaguars, but technically Black Panther doesn't exist as a species because it's a black leopard, Black Jaguar. So you could call a black cougar a Black Panther because it's from a Panther. Family. Back in a 411 episode, we did we we remember when I said I had a theory that Jake would believe. About the the one snatching the lady up into the tree and then just tearing it up, tearing her apart because the footprints went around the car and then stopped.

27:19 What's good? OK, yeah, what will the the guy with the the holes punctured in his head and I told you was a leopard? Because. So sure. Or Jaguars, Sorry. Jaguars like they found them in the river. That one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So those animals, I think those were Jaguars, if I remember correctly from the episode, they. Came up from Mexico, came. Up from Mexico. So if we look at the map of the United States, the Jaguars came up through Arizona, typically were found through Utah all the way up to up north. But Arkansas is not that far from Mexico when we look in the map, United States, and there's no reason they couldn't have passed through Texas at one time and been in Arkansas. So if we have like a legend of Black Panthers, it could have easily have been a real thing. Why are we talking about that?

28:11 Because I was just curious if there was a correlation between the two. Oh. Yeah, I've seen this black cat like figure and stuff like that. They could have. I mean with the exception of the horns. So what if they could have seen, like like a migrating or like a territorial expansion of those Jaguars from the 401 episode we were talking about? They could, right? And it could be one of two sides. You have the leopards in the West and you have the puma's, the mountain lions, the Panthers in the east, right? And for some reason I I don't. I don't understand the biology of it, but almost every feline in the world has a melanistic version.

28:51 Except for mountain lions. Except for fucking mountain lions. There's never been a recorded case of a Mountain Lion that looked any different from any other Mountain Lion. But yet in the Appalachian areas of the United States, there's reports of them. And I mean, it's encrypted. The black the Black Panther is encrypted or Black Mountain Lion is encrypted in the United States. And I mean why? What in the mountain lions DNA says that? This cannot be melanistic, It has to be tawny like every other Mountain Lion that's ever been seen. But you can go see a Jaguar ones with spots, right? Like literally spots. There's black fucking cheetahs, man. Like cheetah spots where this the whole cat's black. And you can make out these little darker spots in its in its, in its fur.

29:42 I just don't get it. I don't understand how every other cat in the world can be melanistic but not a fucking Panther or a Mountain Lion, right? I don't get it. I don't understand. And I, you know, you could, CJ, you bring up a good point. I mean, this thing could have came W It could have came from the east. If it came W it was a, you know, a Jaguar. The part, the part that gets me about it though, is the like they talk about like hearing it like scream and stuff. And like when you hear about the screams and whatnot, that's typically something you would hear from a Mountain Lion. The Particularly when they're mating, they scream like women being killed.

30:26 Yeah, right. Yeah. So, and so to CJ's or fat asses point, it could be the only bad word ever. It could be that people in those areas are just so used to saying mountain lions that their assumption is this is a black Mountain Lion or they're called a Black Panther, where what they're really seeing is northern migrating black Jaguars and whatnot. Yeah, maybe My question would be is if we're only seeing the melanistic ones, which on the whole are a smaller percentage than the the golden Jaguars, why we've never seen one of those.

31:13 Why is it just the black ones That's true? I mean, if we had seen Black Panthers in this area, you would think that it would be a better chance of seeing the tawny versions. Well, their territory wasn't predominantly over in the Arkansas area. It was up above Arizona and N we could be talking about, you know, like right now they have those two Jaguars in. Like, I think it's New Mexico right now is like Hefe and the the second one whose name I can never remember, but like you have no idea what you're talking about. We talked about in the 401 episode, so there's skirts currently like Jaguars are making their way back into the United States. There's two of them right now in the New Mexico area that they keep an eye on and and watch their territory. So we're talking like we may not have seen a golden one because like Arkansas is so far removed from that territory. Like it.

32:04 It's it's not unreasonable to think it didn't wander over there or migrate that way for whatever reason that it did. But it's not a common thing. So like they would have seen this Jag and then they would, it would just be multiple people seeing the same Jaguar. And that would be why we wouldn't have seen like the other ones, because they're just not heading that direction. Because I I don't think though I think the Jaguars were wiped out in the 30s of the United States, right? Something like that, I I don't know. I can tell you that one's out of my my reach. The last female Jaguar was killed in Arizona in 1949. So yeah, this could easily have been a Jaguar that just found its way over there. I could see it, definitely see it.

32:44 But. Man, I am all for animals going back to their natural habitat. But if if I ever see a Jaguar, no, no, I'm. Out I. Was into Canada. That's right, there ain't no Jaguars here in Canada. Love to ask Kenzar? Except for the Canadian Jaguar. Ah, got him all right. So I really want to go over this next part. This this next part is extremely exciting to me because. No luminescence. Yes, this here is, this is wild. This may change the game in a lot of crypted stories or a lot of crypted sightings that were previously unbelievable.

33:33 The eyes. One key feature of the Ozark Howler is the fact that many have reported their eyes glowing red even without any light used for reflection. This means that their eyes aren't reflective, like what we see if we shine a flashlight at the tree line in our backyard, but rather that the eyes produce a sort of bioluminescence that is unseen in any land mammal documented by science. Well, I'm very pleased to tell you that this isn't 100% true. It was during the research for this creature that I was proven wrong. When it comes to this.

34:15 I originally saw the statement that Tasmanian devils had eyes that produced their own light in the darkness in the book The Ozark Heller by Ralph Taller. So I had to take a sidestep and look into this more because if this is true, that would be an absolute game changer. Something that I believed to be impossible, or at least not yet accomplished by a land mammal would change a major flaw in many encrypted stories to a possibility. What I found was that although true, it wasn't 100% what he claimed. According to australiangeographic.com dot a U, there was a discovery made in 2020 that a rather large number of Australian mammals had glowing parts of their bodies when exposed to ultraviolet lights.

35:05 This was true for the Tasminian Devil as well. In fact, it wasn't just the eyes, but also the skin around the snout and portions of their ear would do so as well. Many may be asking the question, why does something that glows under ultraviolet light mean anything to us? We can't see it, true, but this is the step of the color spectrum just above the visible range of colors to the human eye. It is not a stretch of the imagination that a simple tweak to the adaption of an animal could change from ultraviolet to our visible spectrum, especially since it has been proven that many creatures such as birds, insects, fish, reptiles, amphibians, and a handful of mammals see ultraviolet just fine.

35:54 And this is also true for the infrared side of the color spectrum as well, which makes up the portion of the spectrum below our visible colors. So what does this all mean? Well, this means that there may very well be a whole line of communication for land mammals that we are completely unaware of. In every other known species that possesses this trait uses it as a form of communication about such things like mood, identity, and health. Could red eyes and the night mean something like, hey bro, I'm pissed, Go away. All I have to say is my mind's blown. What do you guys think? So you're saying that they had some invisible light waves that became visible. Are you saying that the howler would always be able to see the. So basically what I'm saying, all right, the sightings from the howler, a lot of them.

36:53 I'm talking a really good portion of them. 90% plus highlights the red glowing eyes, even without any kind of reflective. I'm talking about like the science. Are you saying that it's something like UV infrared? Are you saying that it's already in the visible spectrum? No, no, no. So they're the the light that these these animals emit, and they range from marsupials to mammals. In Australia, there's a lot of them are emitting. They're creating a bioluminescence under their skin, in their eyes. You can Google this. That is visible under light that exposes these lights. We can't see them without a tool.

37:36 We need a tool to see them. They looked at them with ultraviolet visuals such as cameras, fliers, infrared cameras, and are able to see this stuff. Now obviously the infrared is wrong. Nobody had to be the other side of things, the ultraviolet stuff. But it has been proven that there is bioluminescence in the eyes and the thin skin around certain areas of both marsupial and mammal animals in Australia. And it's specific to Australia right now. I mean when this came out, people did research to other animals, North America, South America, Europe and wherever else in the world. And it's not being seen anywhere else. But to think that something that is in the ultraviolet spectrum or on that, you know the ultraviolet side of the spectrum for an adaption to be made into our visible spectrum. I don't think it's too far out of the the the realm of possibility.

38:34 I think it's very well within the realm of possibility and it's not a very far step. I mean ultraviolet and infrared or right outside of our of our spectrum of colors. I mean they're right on the fringes. I mean they there's there's this whole spectrum of other colors outside of ours. I mean, I'm sure you're aware of. Can't cats see ultraviolet? I don't know exactly what animals other than the ones that just named off of there, but yeah, there are a ton of animals that are said to be able to. Scorpions, yeah, there, There's a lot of animals that are said to see it. And I mean. Platypi They glow under black light. I wonder if that has something to do with it. I bet you it does. I bet you it does. Is it possible that it's like some weird colored version of Nightshine talking about like eye reflection? Well, I know like nightshine, like in cats and stuff is typically like a greenish color when you see the eyes. Yes, like is it possible that like this, this reddish color is just like a bizarre?

39:32 Like maybe their lenses are different or something and their eyes. So it's like there are animals. There are animals that have red with red eye shine. Like us. Yeah. There, there are like like when we take the old cameras before they got rid of the red eyes. That was the humans version of it. But it would have to be. It's not something that's even we can't even see it under our own, you know, lights. Like if we shine a light at someone's face, we can't see the reflectiveness in our eyes. We need a tool to see it. No, I mean, we've all seen a cat's night shine like in a dark room or something. Like I'm saying, it's like what if this is like similar? That's just like it's a red color instead of like the green or the yellow you would typically get.

40:13 Well, they don't. They don't have shine. You have to, you have to shine a light at them to get a reflection back. Well, I mean, these guys are outside, unless they're like they're in a cave, like at the bottom of a cave or something like. And if they're in that cave, they've got some sort of a light going on. Like they catch a night shine off the moon you could catch a night shine off of, right. Anything. And like, if there's humans present, we have lights we don't see in the dark. If they're walking around, they have lights. So there's no reason that there couldn't be an instance of Night Shine. That's true. It definitely could be. And there are animals. I don't know exactly which ones shine red, but I know that one of the techniques that Bigfoot researchers use when they're dealing with eye shine is that they are looking for a green eye shine that is the specific one to like apes and chimps and stuff like that. I was going to say the same thing. CJI was like, yeah, just because they're not, you know, shining a flashlight in the thing's face doesn't mean that there isn't a moon out, you know, or the stars are really bright or there's, you know, close planets, you know, or something like that. There's always some source of light, right? The only way they'd be walking around at night is if there was some source of light, like a full moon, you know, because obviously we can adjust so much, but we can't adjust in pitch black, you know?

41:36 I think that it's in the cases coming as a skeptic. In the cases that they are seeing an animal, it would be eye shine. However, I think a lot of the Ozark howler is heavily influenced by what people like. They might just see an animal and they come up with exaggerations on it, especially when you hear of cryptids with like glowing red eyes. That super. Common. And they're always all that glowed, like fiery hot coals. And that's very pop culture kind of thing. Like even hounds of the Baskervilles, it had the glowing eyes and muzzle, and that was just phosphorus of course, in that story.

42:18 But it's it's a common association with beasts or demons is something with glowing eyes. Yeah, true. It could be just a Little Mix of of mythology and folklore kind of getting the best of people. And there you go. Just like what CJ was saying, whatever that whatever that human brain thing that we do is where we see shapes and clouds and in trees and all sorts of stuff. Because our, you know, primitive people had to be very weary of that sort of stuff because you get killed, you know, if you couldn't see the things around you, you can see the, you know, the the Jaguar looking at you in the tree, you know. That sort of stuff.

43:00 So, you know, they get this conception of this, this monster that's out there and then they see whatever, I mean shoot, they could see a Mountain Lion and be like that's those are color. Yeah, it's kind of like a good. I also think it's interesting to note that a lot of this stuff happens in the woods at dark. They see a black shape, and then they think they see something like horns. Those could be branches behind it. And then somebody sees that it looks like it has horns, and then that story goes around and now everybody's seen it. Interesting. I don't know, just a sure amount of of reports. Anyways, Jake, what you're kind of explaining is sort of like a weird mythology influenced paradolia.

43:45 That's it. That's the word. Yeah. Yeah, well, you're saying that there's a sheer, sheer amount of reports coming in of people seeing the same thing. We experienced that with serial killers. The minute they put out a description of a serial killer or they put out an image of a serial killer, the the police station, like they'll have to like hire extra call, be like they'll get hundreds of calls all over the country. People saw the same guy. Yep, 100%. That's a good fucking point, dude. That's a really good point. Because yeah, I'm not going to go into that. That's I'm going to keep that in the back pocket. But yes, good one. Or someone puts out a lie about, you know, spacecraft in the sky, and then everyone and their mother has a spaceship story. No, no, Jake.

44:31 We've confirmed every take it, Jake. Take that. Yeah, yeah. Congress is definitely not trying to just swindle more tax dollars by making up a fake organization to research fake stuff we can't we can't get into. This right now, we just can't. This is. Come out with an alien episode this so I can crap all over it. We should. We should because this is, this is getting really deep and I man, stay away from Mystery Stone tomorrow, Jake. I'm gonna leave a one star review. I'm gonna leave 31 star. Review No, I I don't know. I I have my thoughts about it. But all right, let's move on to another really good part.

45:13 I like this. This one. This one's very interesting. This is where we start hearing from those famous people. Like Eisenhower. Like Eisenhower. Eventually. Was that right? Yes. Oh, nice. It was like for all those that love it, the belief in the howler was so strong that in 1892 leaders among the lumber workers and a few other outdoorsmen were so over the constant fear and hunting of the creature that they banded together and created a secret Society of sorts to aid in the protection from and of the howler. The Society was officially named the Concentrated Order of The Who Who and was officially established in Gurdon, Arkansas. The order still exists to this day and has members from all over the world in the woodworking industries. Their official logo consists of a black cat in a pouncing position, encircled by a black ring with the words International Order of who, who since 1892 printed within it. The Black Cat is a direct representation of the old Wampus Cat lore and their belief in 1892 that the Howler was a Wampus cat known for making a very deep whoohoo sound when it called.

46:28 At the beginning of every meeting, the poem, The Hunting of the Snark, is sung before conducting any other business. The poem was written by a man by the name of Lewis Campbell and refers to a specific hunting trip that took place that ended awfully. Although very long, a section of this poem is song which refers to the Snark, which was yet another name commonly used in the 19th century for the creature now known as the Ozark Howler. Many different theories have risen about the true reasons for the birth of the society, with the main purpose being to protect both the workers and the howler at the same time, as an effect to create a way for the creature to live and the woodsmen to earn their livelihood.

47:15 Two of the more historically famous known members of The Who Who were presidents Theodore Roosevelt and Warren G Harding, which was a huge chapter in the history of the society as it began its involvement in not only local politics but national politics as well. With the society in the Oval Office, it was granted numerous federal resources for its cause. Just wanted to make note that all this information on the order came from a book written by Ralph Taller titled The Ozark Howler, in which he refers to a podcast for his information called Counting Creatures. But with simple surface research, all the claims in the book are verifiable and lead to many questions and connections. One of which comes to my mind instantly when you hear the name Roosevelt in a reference to a creature in the woods. Is whether or not Roosevelt's influence in the creation of the National Park system had anything to do with his tie to the order of The Who, Who?

48:17 And if so, maybe the theory Roosevelt creating such a system to house crypted such as Bigfoot and the Howler may actually have some weight behind it. I mean, the Ozarks do have multiple federally owned land claims and his official position within the society. Was as president of American Forestry, and it was documented that his initial task was to establish protected zones for the howler. Either way, this goal extended into his presidency, where he established the National Park system. Roosevelt served as President from 1901 to 1909 and the establishment of the Ozark National Forest was made official on March 6th of 1908 and was one of the last things that Teddy did as President of the United States.

49:08 There is one more interesting tidbit which comes in the form of a conspiracy in relation to these two Presidents and the Order. Both presidents died of mysterious and sudden circumstances. Roosevelt died in the sleep of a heart attack in his home in Oyster Bay, NY, in 1919, just prior to his attempting at becoming president for an unprecedented third term, and Harding died of a heart attack in San Francisco in 1923 while talking to his wife. There are many other conspiracies having to do with Harding's death, but the one that seems the most important in relation to the Howler is that in his toxicology report after death, it was determined that he was poisoned. Both men passed away as active members of the Order and are theorized to be on the bad side of its members, with the conspiracy being that many believe that they were killed in some way by way of the Orders wishes. Let's discuss Roosevelt's death first in 1919. Roosevelt had apparently had the orders backing and becoming the 1st president to serve a third term in his first two terms, which ended in 1909, ten years prior. He had a very strict stance against any harm aimed at the Howler.

50:23 This upcoming third term was aimed to be a very different one from his first two. Teddy was known as being an avid hunter and within those 10 years since his last term, he had grown to really enjoy hunting. And now, as part of his campaign, he claimed to be able to hunt the Howler and prove its existence. He told of an idea that America needed a stronger mascot than the bald eagle. And that the Howler would make a great replacement, even went as far as to mention that he wanted the howler to be placed on the back of the penny. Roosevelt made a huge mistake by believing that the Order of The Who Who needed him more than he needed the Order, and therefore it is believed that the order had assassinated him in order to keep him away from a third term as President. It is then said that shortly after a personal meeting had taken place between Roosevelt and the higher ranking members of The Who WHO, the organization reached out to a much newer member who joined in 1905, Member #14,945 A Warren G Harding.

51:29 Harding was to step forward as a candidate and the order would take care of the rest. Long story short, Harding became the 29th president of the United States. Unfortunately for Harding, he was surrounded by lobbyists once in office and approved a bill that increased the number of provisions extracted from the Ozarks. And this was in direct contradiction to the orders cause. On August 2nd, 1923, Harding died in room 8064, AKA the Presidential Suite of the Plaza Hotel, by an apparent heart attack while in the presence of his wife, to add insult to injury. After future renovations to the Plaza Hotel, the Presidential Suite room number was changed to 888Y88.

52:16 Well, it's not 100% certain, but the belief is that the number 888 is a direct reference to Roosevelt's member number, which was 999, the reduction in number being a tie between the place of Harding's death and another member that seemingly betrayed the order now. Earlier in this presentation I told the story of three veterans who had a nasty run in with the howler in 1946 in Marshfield, MO. And I mentioned that there was a famous visitor who made a trip to the town. Well, that visitor came on September 29th, 1948. It was done under and President of the United States Harry S Truman. During his speech as he arrived by railway, Truman may note that he had previously visited this small town time and time again.

53:05 This turned out to be true, as he was not only very familiar with the town elders, but was also a member of the Freemasons in which he spent a stint as their Grand Master from 1940 to 1941. Truman was born in Missouri and was initially a member of Lodge #450 in Belton, MO, before doing many stints as a member of various other chapters and other secret societies. Now we have to go back to The Who who in Roosevelt and Harding for a second. Sometime after the death of Harding, the order split into two separate identities due to many members being upset with how politically motivated the Order had become. The Order, the Whoohoo, still exists to this day, but the spinoff, which was now simply known as the Sawmen, took over the original goal of the Whoohoo as protectors of the Ozarks and the Howler. The sawmen stayed active with the Whoohoo. But were a completely nonpolitical entity. Other than accepting funding for their protection plans, which was filtered by the Order, the Saw men became a real, quote UN quote secret society.

54:12 It stayed completely out of the limelight. They went as far as to even hide the entrances to their bases and meeting halls, many of which were underground. This is where Truman comes in. Truman approved funding to the Sawman for a specific base while in that meeting at the Masonic Lodge in Marshfield. This base was just a few yards away from the shores of the Osage River in Missouri and came equipped with a waterproof door due to the threat of flooding by the river and a well placed quote UN quote log jam used as cover from people passing by. The mission of this base was to be a central control for protection of the Ozarks and the Howler from the population boom in Springfield all the way to the Kansas border in response to the attack on the men building their homes 15 years later, the Truman Dam would be built very close to the original entrance of this base, which ended up making that section of the river into a lake.

55:15 It completely engulfed the original entrance of the Sawman's base, the reason being that the nearby growth of the city of Osceola was getting out of hand and the threat of someone finding their secret government funding hangout was becoming more likely. So the dam was built and named after the man who funded the base, and a new secret entrance to the hidden Sawman base was placed somewhere within the walls of the Truman Dam. It is believed at this base is no longer used by the sawmen due to flooding in 2019 and 2020, but that hasn't stopped the sawmen as they are still a society standing for the woodsmen, workers and Ozarks to this day. Thoughts.

56:00 Not much of A secret society if you can get that much information on. Yes, well the sawmen are are hard. Like you can't really get too much into them now. The Order of The Who who started off as a secret society. And is no longer a secret society like you. I have, dude, I've found memorabilia from them on eBay. They could find like old tin signs and stuff of this this cat with the order of The Who who written around it. It's pretty cool stuff. That's pretty cool. I mean, does this lend any belief? Does it? I mean the the people who are involved in this. Does this help at all? Not really for me, really. Plus, now that we've seen a picture of apparently the Ozar cower, I will say that the bald Eagles definitely better than that, even though all the sounds of the bald eagle, all the bald eagle sounds are fake. And those are from a Turkey vulture. But whatever I thought the the bald eagle was done by Red Tail Hawk.

57:00 Oh yeah, probably. Oh, it was supposed to be a Turkey vulture, and then it was changed to bald eagle. But the Red Tail Hawk is all the sound effects, because a bald eagle actually just makes a cooing sound. Sounds kind of like a chicken. What were we talking about if we before we start dying by Eagles? If all the if all the stories change your opinion about if it's real or not? Not really. All this government involvement, no nothing. Presidents are always involved in some sort of secret society. That doesn't make him legitimate, right? True, true. But the simple fact that that all this response to the Ozark howler, I mean the only one that didn't have anything directly to do with the howler was Harding, but he was in the order of The Who. Yeah, but it's also said that Roosevelt created such massive swaths of land for for animal protection was also for Bigfoot. And are we really taking something called Who, Who? Seriously?

57:58 Don't say that. They'll fuck you up. They they don't exist anymore. And Hardy? No. Yeah, they do. Oh, they do they. Do, Yeah. They said that they they they're the salmon now. No, they split into two. Both of them still still exist. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get them real from both. That's like calling us the Order of the Gooch or something, right? Like make sure we clean up your who who? Like, come on. Like, yeah, I can't take that serious. I mean, this a legitimate thing. It was named after the creature. One of the names was the Whoo Hoo oh. I like the name The Beast. It should have been Order of the Beast right now that would have been misconstrued.

58:39 These days we've been like, wow, that's pretty It's pretty dark and satanic. But like, that would have been a lot better than Whoo Hoo. If it exists. It's demonic in origin just because of what type of witchcraft was being practiced back in those times. Well, in Western culture anyway. Writing. These things down. Lauren, in terms of the societies, I don't people will form a secret society around anything just to be kind of part of a club for power, for politics, for prestige. Yeah, so I don't think that necessarily gives it the Ozark howl or any weight.

59:21 Also considering how large like look at. Nessy and Loch Ness. Look at how large that's gotten, and we're pretty darn sure that that does not exist. Even just your guys's episode. That was kind of the general consensus. So I I wouldn't be surprised that something like this would get to be a huge legend. And then there's just offshoots from that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think that the. The time of Roosevelt's death to when he supposedly had this meeting with The Who who he came out and said, well, I'm going to hunt this bitch.

1:00:03 And then he just died. Like shortly after. You're going to release this episode, and I know where I'm going when I die, so I'm going to hunt this thing. All, here comes The Who. Well, I mean, I don't care, right? Yeah. Oh, no. I won't have to pay bills and taxes anymore and I'll be home with Jesus, like who cares? What? And Whitney gets $500,000 for my life insurance and. What if you get there and he taxes you on something? I don't know, man. But yeah, I mean, honestly, this is wrapping up to just be another one of those things where just like wanting to take, you know, was it tales from the Animal Kingdom?

1:00:44 We'll have to take him up on his offer for the streaking woods. We're going to have to go to the Ozarks and see if we can actually find this thing. And maybe it's that little rat dog, cat looking thing with the antlers and maybe it's maybe it's legit. Maybe it's just like what Lauren drew and we're gonna have to prep a wall mount for this thing. Quick start shaking a cup. We need funding to go do this hunt. I'm gonna waste some books, you know, going back to that picture. I don't know, man. I I look at that and I see if that's a if that's a a youth, I think that. Mom or Dad looks fucking scary.

1:01:25 That's just me. But I agree with Lauren though. We see that in in felines and canines and I'm sure other animals too, that the paws, the ears, they're pretty much, they're not exactly the adult size, but they're way bigger if the animal is supposed to get massive, right. And so it's like, I I don't know. I don't buy that that thing is a is a pup, considering it's so skinny and lanky and its paws and ears are so small. So the one thing I do want to point out is like we're talking about something could be feline in nature, but it also has antlers, right, Where if we're looking at the animal Kingdom as well, something like a feline packs claws and fangs because they're predatory, an animal packs antlers as defense.

1:02:14 So we're looking so like you don't really see both things typically in one animal. Where they have you prey, animals typically have defensive weapons. Where predators have offensive weapons, we're looking at an animal that has both Fiji mermaid taxidermized animal. Very interesting, CJ. I mean, this is definitely a long shot, but there have been animals and even people who will end up with like keratinized growths that can show up. On the the face to the forehead that resemble kind of horns.

1:02:55 They're not gonna get to the size of like a Rams horn or an elk antler. But you never know, Maybe somebody saw a bear with some weird characterized something on its forehead and was like, those are horns, and then that spurred all of these legends. That's a pretty good idea too, for sure. I like that one rabbits. Have some sort of disease some of them will get and they actually look like they have some some little jackalopes. Well, that's that's where people are like, oh, I saw a Jackalope and they're like, no, you just saw a sick rabbit. That thing would be a mount. I'd I'd take one of those. And being like this is awesome. No.

1:03:37 Well, then, any rabbit that you have in life will always have those horns. They'll get this disease. And we know how much you love rabbits. You went what if it? What if it was like, you know, let's really, let's really reach for some straws here. What if it was like a feline esque animal that had some sort of it was susceptible to some form of Cordyceps. See now that's. The form stalks on the head. Cordyceps is a scary thing. I I think that if Cordyceps can never make the jump, that's really bad for us, talking about the fungus. Yeah, the thing that basically it drives the the creature, like, it just jumps in into the driver's seat. It just drives you up until like the top of a Bush and then you just die there so they can grow underneath the sunlight. It's.

1:04:27 I mean, it's it's literally zombification. A lot of them behave in different patterns. Some of them make the animal turn into bait for predatory animals so it can breed in the intestinal tracts of the predators. But like, I mean, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that a species, of course, has maybe found its way into a smaller feline species that maybe we hadn't classified at the time. This corsets could have taken it over, made it violent in those In those instances, corsets are also known to form stalks in the head, especially like things like snails and stuff. It'll form such a stalks to take it. Take that over. It's not unreasonable think that it would make it violent and then if it wiped out that feline species before we had a chance to classify, it definitely wouldn't be the first Wildcat to get wiped out of the United States. That's.

1:05:24 Right. No, you're right. Definitely wouldn't be now that you brought it up a man. That's that's what I'm going to dive into saying. I'm not going to be able to go to sleep now. Thanks. Yeah, I saw, I saw this picture of like the the bottom left picture with these like grab worms or whatever and my scalp started itching and I was like great. I was like. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, you see, it's it. It gets like these fungal growths and it literally drives you. Are they hard or are they soft? Maybe they're hard in the species. It depends on what that type of Cordyceps is designed to like, how it reproduces. Like the Cordyceps itself, its whole thing is for it to reproduce spores.

1:06:08 So it depends on how it does it. Is it in the intestinal tract of another animal, or is it in the sunlight? Jeremy said. Or is it under a damp rock? You know, however, that fungus creates more spores, and that determines what it does. But it's literally the concept of many zombie movies, but in the insect world. All right, Y'all ready? Ready all. Right, there are those that hate it. Yes, it does seem to be true that there are plenty of entities that were created in order to protect the creature, but what were they protecting the creature against?

1:06:50 Yes, of course they were protecting it against the average hunter. And yes, that applies to small towns, people driving down lonely, dark dirt roads, campers, and even people who were seeking the creature out directly. But the creature also had another enemy who came in the form of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church's second minister, 1 Horace Greenleaf. Minister Greenleaf was accepted in by all hands of the church's congregation and during his first sermon pointed to a stained window with a depiction of the howler and identified the creature as an evil presence and one that sided with demonic entities. This was met with a split of emotions by the people who received the sermon.

1:07:34 The church's choir director Miriam Frawley was one of which who were thoroughly upset with the words of the minister. In her anger, she left the church and gathered a group of the most prominent families of the congregation and together they created a pamphlet in which they described the howler as akin to Christian angels. She claimed that the simple fact the creature's image was enough to send the bravest running for the hills, since angels were depicted as not being the beautiful humans in white cloth with white feathery wings, but rather they were described as flying eyeballs, burning wheels in the sky, 2 headed serpents, among other terrifying images. Following with the fact that if you encountered an Angel, you would scream in terror instead of worshipping it, tension got so bad that on Christmas Eve, nineteen O 7, Greenleaf stood before the congregation and proclaimed that he would not stand to serve the church unless the window had been removed, and continued to grab a large brass Candlestick and hurled it through the window. The window shattered and the collective breath was taken out of everyone who witnessed the tantrum. And about half of the members stood up and walked out of the church for the last time of their lives. Frawley was furious and yelled back at the minister that church would be cursed due to his actions. A week later, on January 1st, 1908, a fire broke out in the church and completely destroyed the building. The blame was set solely on Minister Greenleaf and his deeds against the howler.

1:09:06 Another conflict between the howler and a church took place in the early 1900s in the town of New Dixie, Arkansas, at the St. Boniface Catholic Church. The church was a place for the predominantly German migrant population to worship, but rumors surrounding the Church of a cult practices satanic warship, the abduction of infants and toddlers, and a secret black altar in the basement which was said to all be centered around the howler. One day, the building nearest the church, which some claimed was the true covenant of the rumored Satanic worship, was set ablaze. During the church's mass, the leaders of the church sent a few volunteers to tent to the fire instead of notifying the local fire department.

1:09:49 This was a mistake as the fire quickly traveled to the church and the building burned down completely in a similar fashion to the onslaught of the black Dog of Bungay. That we covered in our 91st episode titled Black Shuck and the Other British Black Dogs. Some claim to have seen the beast prowling around in the fire as if it were enjoying the entire event. That's it, everybody. That's everything that I have on the Ozark Howler 2 episodes. CJ Yep, Okay, you lost me. Why did the guy throw the Candlestick through the window? The howler was seen as a demonic entity by him, and he did not want to serve the church under the image of a demonic entity. Churches have done that for forever, like really old cathedrals with their gargoyles and stuff purchased on the outside.

1:10:45 Hey, man, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's real, you know? Right. I'm just telling you the yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, but. It's really they equated to like things like the Seraphim, the Cherubim and and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera on that too like because none of those none of those angelic descriptions match anything like the Howler, like they don't even they don't even look right. It sounds like such like a horror movie base. Like we have a church, but it's not really church. It's Satan posing as a thing running a church that's pretending to be worshiping God. But really, you're worshiping Satan like. Both of those cases just kind of feel like human hysteria to me. Sounds like, yeah, Koontz wrote it.

1:11:29 Dean Koontz has one good book that is. It Don't you ever disparage Dean Koontz in front of me. I will. I will walk. Wisconsin won to be with you. You should. Then we can finally shake hands. But yeah, one good book. That's it. So that's it, Lauren. How was it? It was great. It was fun. Tell me how bad it was. The beginning was a little bit. I feel like I was kind of nervous at the beginning. I talked really fast and too much but during the intro. But you know what? Y'all weren't. Nearly as intimidating as I thought you would. Be No one talks more than Jeremy. Listen, Badass.

1:12:14 Canceled. All right, let's ask the final question. Jake, you first. Real Fake. Fake. I'm unconvinced. And I was definitely more unconvinced when you know all. Well not all, but most, like you said of the newer sightings were all fake because it was one person, multiple different usernames and stuff, which isn't even like that out of the realm of possibilities because I one person gave you two, five star reviews using different names. So that could mean that one person could make just a bunch of different usernames at different times, even if it's spaced out between like a week or a month or whatever.

1:13:01 And just say I had this experience and then someone else says I have this experience, it's the same person. You know that was that was my hope was that there would be photographic evidence with newer sightings. And we see the photographic evidence and it looks like you know either like the mermaids right where it's just like a monkey taped to a fish or or and everyone's like worshipping it and stuff or you know it's just not as even if it is real it's not nearly as impressive as people are making it out to be. So if it is Israel, it's it's not what they say.

1:13:43 And I'm really just chalking this up to in my mind that it's just, it's like the Snaligaster, it's just another type of legend that people got all way big into. And I think during the Snaligaster episode, who do we have on that one? Snaligaster We had Sarah. There you go, Sarah. Sarah from the Snaligaster Museum. I should know that, right? But she said that there's a huge cult following around the whole thing, a lot of witchcraft and stuff and everything like that, but yet there's zero evidence of its actual existence. And I think that it's just like that, you know, secret side societies aside, I mean that could just be a part of like the major cult following of this thing, right?

1:14:27 It's just a really cool local legend, way cooler than the Fresno Nightcrawler and so. But I'm I'm not convinced because of the because of the attraction and the, you know, mass Asteria around it or the popularity of it, that that makes it real. And I'm certainly not in the realm of people that think that just because you you all think about the same thing, that summons it into reality. So I'm just not convinced. But at the same time, if we wanted to plan a trip to the Ozarks to go find it, even if it was like a cool road trip, you know, just post out and see, you know, set up some game show cameras, what can we see?

1:15:10 That would be cool too. Get taken by. The Who who robes thrown over our heads. I was gonna make a joke, but I'll keep it to myself. Same thing, same joke. Alright, CJ, I'm with. I'm with. Jake, it's it's fake. I like I was like real heavy onto the like the witchcraft portion of it and like if if anything like the initial stories of like it being like this big monster with like horns and. All over the the place all at once. And like assaulting people like that would be very like demonic spirit summoning for vengeance reasons like. But no, we have a guy who played with lead a lot came down and claimed it was real like you know it was a cat with quarter steps.

1:16:00 I like that explanation. It was a cat with quarter steps. I hope it wasn't a cat with quarter steps. Hope not. I hope that's not a thing. Yet. But I like. I like that one. All right, Lauren, what do you think? Well, like most cryptids, I think that somebody saw something at one point that was some really messed up bear, some really messed up cat and went that doesn't look normal. And then I think the point was interesting when you're talking about all the different English and French folklore and how it ended up kind of being a mix of those. I think they were explaining something normal. Maybe it was not a good look at it, maybe kind of messed up, got in a fight, had some growth on it and they explained it using their legends and then that spiraled because, I mean, they were all out in the woods, they were seeing bears, they were seeing cats, they were seeing shadows. And if you're hearing all about this demonic looking beast. You're gonna use that to explain it. Plus it's a cool story to tell your friends. Be like I fought off this beast.

1:17:10 I almost died. Yeah, it kept destroying our timber out in the woods. Yeah, that's who. What do you mean the project needs more funding and you need more time to build it? What happened? Oh, let me tell you man, that's crazy story. Now if that guy really got stabbed like that, that that is interesting, but I've been stabbed by a tree branch before. It could have just been some dudes fucking off doing stupid shit. Somebody gets seriously hurt and you're like, dude, shut the fuck up. This was the howler. Yeah, this is how we're going to blame this. Now come here so I can pull that log at your shoulder. You know, if I go to jail, then this place never gets built, right?

1:17:56 You know that. You know how we did the thing they said we shouldn't do? Yeah, we're going to need you to be quiet about that. At one point in my research, I was actually getting really convinced I came into this not believing a single thing. I thought this was just going to be some cool story. I love the folklore aspect to it, love the the integration of different folklore into one thing. And I love when different cultures come together. And create something I love. I love that. And you see that a lot within the world of credit zoology. Who's that? I don't. I don't remember the podcast I was on, but we were talking about the, oh, I was on Phil's podcast and we were talking about dog men.

1:18:41 Yeah. And I was talking about how if you look at the two points in the United States where the dog man phenomenon basically started, where all of the lore starts is basically in Michigan and Louisiana. Right, Louisiana with the Rue Baru and up in Michigan with the Michigan dog band and you draw a line directly down the middle. They basically line up right over each other and both of them were initially homes to French immigrants or French explorers were coming in through that area. Are those areas they brought over their their culture, their lore of the of their werewolves? You know the obviously the werewolves came from places such as Romanian are Romania 1st and then made its way to France where it was named the Luca Roux. Then it came up was named the Ruguru and then you had these two that came down the middle.

1:19:41 And if you look at maps and you look at where the the dog man phenomenon is mostly prevalent, I mean, although it's all over the United States now, the Mississippi is where it was born. And you have things like the Beast of Bray Rd. which is literally just a few hours drive from the Mississippi River. You have all of these different dog men, urban legends that build off of cultural influence. And that's what I was really trying to paint with all three of those things. And and it was very easy to find that it was not hidden. It was right there on the surface. You take the these three cultures, you mix them together and what do you get? Get the Ozark Howler. I do find it interesting that they all came together and they they said that they saw something and what they saw was their culture.

1:20:31 My only question is did they actually see something? Cuz I agree I don't think any of the the the modern sightings are relevant at all. I just don't. I think people are are too quick to want to get some some sort of. Graphic Internet cloud. That's that's it. Yeah, right. And I mean, shit, people say that about me. I've had a lot of people, especially YouTube comments, talk about my Bigfoot sighting and shit. That is what it is. But that's what I believe, right? But when you look back in the past, I I do think that, you know, they may have actually been seeing something, don't know what it is. I mean, you have all of the the lore about the Wampus Cat. I mean, these people were Mountaineers, man.

1:21:11 They knew the difference between a Mountain Lion and a Wampus, and there was a clear difference. We'll go over that in the later episode. But if they're seeing this thing and they're calling it more of a wampus than than a lion or whatever you'd think that they were, they were seeing something. I don't, I don't think it exists anymore. I think it's a good chance that something did exist. I think the horns are a little bit stretched out. And CJ, you really killed it for me, man. You you put that nail right in that coffin. When you start talking about the defense animals and the antlers and the horns, that is like, I am a huge fan of biology, man. And that is biology that that that's proof right there, right? I mean what what animals in this world have horns that don't have hooves? Is there anything?

1:21:56 I mean they're. I don't think so, right? Snails I Crabs. I don't, I don't think. So rhinoceros is oh, those are this way those are one, yes. I don't know. Do rhinos not have hooves? No, no, they get. They have toes, but they're still technically on gilets, which are. Yeah. Deer and stuff. Lauren's very smart. I like it. She's very smart, very smart. And when you start looking at the predators, you start seeing tusks and Saber tooth teeth, right? Which are more?

1:22:38 Like elongated commands, Like pigs. Bores right? They have tusks. You see them coming out from the bottom, not from the top. So I mean, CJ, you nailed it. I do not believe in the modern Ozark howler, but I think that there might have been something. I just don't think it had antlers or horns. Whatever. Good topic Lauren. This is this is a lot of fun to do. I'm I'm just glad you did it, 'cause it's my favorite. I also really liked the OGO Pogo. That's like my other favorite Nice OGO Pogo. I miss so much on that. I've come across so much more information in my time with this show that I really wish I had added to that episode. Maybe one day, another one, maybe maybe one day. I got a lot more to do first.

1:23:31 But yeah, go toss, All right. Does anybody else have anything to say? I think you did a great episode. You put a lot of time and effort into a lot of research and what you were saying, like reaching out to people. And stuff like that. I think that you did a really Dang good job. Well, this It was fake, but it was a good job. This was this was the first time that I gathered the balls to send some emails. I even made. I made two phone calls. Who? Did you call, We'll talk about that offer, Okay, but you. Called Roosevelt. No, you did a seance to ask Roosevelt directly, but I did reach out to a member of The Who what I did, I did.

1:24:18 I was just like looking for history of it. That's it. Just kind of trying to figure out, you know, some of the history behind the name and everything and whether or not it was really tied to the the Ozark Keller and sure enough, yeah, that's. Are you a full-fledged member now? No, not at all. I mean, this is, this is all, you know, public knowledge now about the origins and everything, but you know, just to hear it confirmed by somebody who is a member, or at least claims to be a member, that was pretty cool. All right, Lauren, one more time. Let everybody know where they can see that awesome artwork. Do it. Yeah. So you can see it on Instagram at El Mecum Studio. That's LMECUM Studio.

1:25:03 Yeah, go check it out. Like I said, pretty much anything on there is you can buy the original or prints and I had to do custom long boards and commissions and all that kind of stuff. Just great work everybody. At the very least, please go check it out. Good stuff, really good stuff. Lauren, thank you for coming on to the The Infinite Rabbit Hole podcast and thank you for your request. This is cool. I'm happy that I was able to get this in before you took off, because you're almost done at work, right? Yeah, Couple more weeks or something. CJ Badass. It's always nice to see you, man. Yeah, thanks. It was nice having you back, man. I I miss you. Miss you a lot, you know that.

1:25:44 I appreciate you. I miss you playing arc. I don't. I haven't turned my PlayStation on in over a year now. A year, going on, a year and a half. Well, you look good, man. You. I don't think I've seen you smile before and got to see that a couple times today. That's pretty good. So it looks like you're in a good place, man. Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely doing a lot better than I was. Good stuff, dude. Jake. Jake. Jake is Jake. That's it. Jake, you know I love you, man. Me. All right. Well, that's been another episode of the Infinite Rabbit Hole podcast. Thanks for checking it out. And we'll see you next time. Bye.

1:26:26 Bye bye. I would like to thank you once again for tuning into the Infinite Rabbit Hole podcast. Please make sure to give us a follow and one of those beautiful five star ratings on your podcast player of choice. If you would like to join the conversation and stay up to date on all things infinite rabbit hole, head on over to Facebook and search for the Infinite Rabbit Hole Facebook group. You all know it's us when you see the logo. If you would like to help contribute to the cause, there are a few ways to do so. First, head on over to anchor dot FM forward slash infinite Rabbit hole and click on the subscribe button where for $5 a month you'll get access to all the old episodes that will never see the free spotlight ever again. It's horrible stuff, but if you're into that kind of thing and go check that.

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