Simulation Theory: A Conversation with Grayson

0:20 Over the years, movies video games, books and TV shows have portrayed, various levels of simulations of life, from the futuristic Holodeck of Star Trek to the visually and physically immersive virtual reality, World known as The Oasis from the 2018, major Motion Picture. Ready Player One The fantasy of spending time in a virtual world has captured the imagination of many. But today, we are not discussing simply visiting a simulated world like, in those pieces of entertainment. But visiting the possibility that we unknowingly live in a world, that is fabricated for our existence in 1999. The movie.

1:03 The Matrix introduced the masses to the idea that we are all Pawns in an artificial World. Tethered to our fake Reality by Located are actual bodies in the real world. This path of the unknown is filled with questions. That will not only view uncomfortable but we'll have you questioning your literal place in the universe. Do we live in the quote-unquote real world? What would be the purpose of our world? What would be our purpose is this world less like that of the Matrix and more like that of the Sims? Are we living our own artificial lives? Or we simply an avatar of somebody else's actions and desires sit back, hang tight and get ready to question everything. Welcome back to find a rabbit.

2:45 Welcome back to infinite Rabbit Hole. Everybody, I'm Jeremy. I'm your host today and I have a very special episode for you today. Today, we're having one of our absolute biggest and longest running fans. Finally come on to the show. I'll take most responsibility for the long, wait, but I can't take all of it. I also have to pass it on to one of my co-hosts who is also joining us today Jake. Oh, it's Jake. Jake. Dehaven. I've been good, I've been real good. I am finished the motorcycle. Finish the project. I've been riding it around, been really hectic at my house. A lot of busy stuff going on, but I'm excited for this episode.

3:26 It's been a long time coming. We've been blowing off this fan for a very long time, and it's not good. So I'm glad we're finally getting to it. Yeah, well, me too, man, I've been looking forward to this, you know, this was a subject that was Originally brought up to our attention by him for our faith. First, a fan of preciate episode. Yeah. Like in the 17 months ago, a long time ago and we purposely didn't do it then because that was an episode that was multiple subjects and we're like there's no way that this thing can just fit into a sliver of an episode.

4:10 So we're like we got to we got to save this so weird. Saving it for today for the most part. But we'll get into that here in a second. Let me get the rest of the student body in here real quick. What you do some new kid first Ken's are Welcome, how are you today? How about you, you know, just great and went to my son's little birthday party today. That was a blast. I'll tell you, I love love. Hanging out with a bunch of kids. It's it's fun. But yeah. Well good and then there's Jeffrey the crazy conspiracy.

4:50 Theorist Guy. Crazy, conspiracy theory guy. Jeff, how you doing, man? What's up? But I'm doing fantastic. Fantastic. How are you bud doing, good. How's your beer? It's thick and voluptuous as always. Thank you for asking us. Yes, yes, yes, good. Very, very good. Do you either you guys have any updates for all the listeners? I won the lottery but you didn't, I did not. You are correct. You're still here. Well, we know that you would leave us in a heartbeat if you did. Absolutely not. I would actually build a really dank underground bunker with a studio in it and just move everybody out there and we would do this like even better really but you wouldn't that's not yeah.

5:37 Why wouldn't I would say? And it would also be my show it be Are you out like I'll offer you $10 be like deal done. All right. Well Jake I'm going to go ahead and pass this off to you man. This is this this guest is near and dear to your heart. He's here in my heart to you don't get me wrong but you have special interest here. So go ahead and introduce our guests for the night. Okay. So the easiest way to introduce this, our guests is to talk about how important he is to the show. So we talked about this several times and I can't stress it enough that he was our buffer for all the crap. We were producing when we first started this thing up. So he's my step-brother Grayson.

6:34 And when we were growing up, we kind of had, we tried out the YouTube thing, right? We were making movies and stuff and we're using our dads Mac, I think, Can using iMovie and we were putting up these little videos on YouTube and stuff, and I don't think we, I think we only made like five of them or whatever, but we really enjoyed it, it was fun, right? We had a bunch of projects that we just never ended up releasing. And and so we kind of had a background in this whole how to make audio sound. Good thing adding music to stuff thing, you know, all that sort of stuff. So, when Jeremy and I were both about to start actually putting on episodes, We I don't know maybe record like 10 of them of various degrees of suck that we gave to Grayson first and he would give us these pointers on like what was good about it? What was bad about it you know and really just helping us to get to just a starting point because at first they were just absolutely terrible.

7:36 So he was he literally is the oldest fan that we have. I think Grayson has To every single episode that we have and we'll have to tell you if that's if that's wrong but I think that he's the only person that continuously will listen to an episode and then give us pointers and say hey I like this I didn't like that and we use his input as a huge factor in building up the show. So every time we make a change or nearly every time that we make a change to the podcast where we go in a different direction, it's more than likely. Because of Grayson's input. He's like the only person that we care about.

8:18 It comes to like, ratings reviews and stuff, but I'm so happy to have them on. Like Jeremy was saying we had our first fan, appreciation episode, and he broached or made a comment on. We should talk about simulation Theory and at the time we didn't know nothing about simulation Theory and we really weren't in a good spot to Branch out into that topic in any sort of meaningful way or any sort of way that would you know Captivate the listeners attention and not be a giant waste of time. So we put it a pin in it and we're like we'll get back to it later and unfortunately later meant now which is a crazy long time later. But we're happy to have them on.

9:05 We're happy to give them the spot and Grayson thank you so much for being here. Why don't you? Do your debut in Choose Yourself to the fans. Well hey everybody it's nice to finally be on. Yeah you make it sound like I'm some grand architect or something but I'm just a guy that you know just wanted to support my brother and his his Endeavors with Jeremy. Who I've gotten to know a little bit. It's been fun. It's been really cool to hear you guys grow and be whatever small part of that, that I am. So No, it's good to find the Beyond guys. I think it was our second episode great.

9:50 It was either our second or third episode I think it was the one that we actually interviewed my buddy, Mike about his Ruger experience where I'm sitting there. I'm waiting for Jake to to text or call in the about Grayson's, feelings about the episode and I'm like. So what, what did he think? What do you think in Jake was like, oh, he thinks it fucking sucked. Like the the, the audio was just absolutely trash and I was like well, we know that, but how was the rest of it? He's like I don't know, he couldn't listen to the recipe said it's horrible. I was But the very first episode, even that one that we joked about last week, let us introduce ourselves. The one that we had to remake last week, you know, we joke, a lot about how horrible it wasn't everything. But it was mostly horrible because of how awkward we were and, you know, we're not, we're not necessarily awkward anymore. We just kind of get on the mic and chat, you know, just like we're having a conversation now and He actually gave us really good feedback about it.

10:56 He said that it was good. And if it wasn't for Grayson's initial comments, good comments, I don't know. It would have been tough to continue because it was a lot of work and a lot of I had to gather the balls to put out more episodes because it's a lot of work, you know, to get to get started and you know just wanted to say on air. Grayson, thank you for forgiving me the motivation and the critiques and stuff and everything worked out really good because I like where we're at now. So thank you. Well absolutely of course.

11:38 Yeah. And I just want to clear the air that all of my feedback going through a Jacob filter is probably coming to you. As oh yeah the everything sucked and I was just but I promise it was a little more a little more well-thought-out levels here could use some work or, you know, blah, blah, blah. So, I believe it, I do, I'm happy to hear that got to your ears as this is awful. Cliff Notes version, right? So I like all the stuff That you're saying. I'm just like yeah I hated it. Yeah, I know it. I second Jeremy's. You know thank you because for us I mean I think that anybody that's starting out on a project they need to know that what they're doing is worthwhile that someone's enjoying it, right that it's not just a giant waste of time and considering it took so long for us to start getting people to leave ratings and reviews for the longest time. It was only your input.

12:33 That, that we Able to take and say, okay, so this is where we need to change. This is what we need to do better at, or this is what we, we've nailed, you know, whatever it was, and you're very consistent with us. So we hold you at such a high regard because you literally were that one fan that was helping us to build to where we are now. Because before we had anyone else ever hitting us up and saying like, hey, you know, I really didn't like that or like this or, you know, I like this content or whatever you were that. That that person for us. And so I also agreed with Jeremy that when he says that, you know, we are here today because of your input, it's absolutely legit.

13:19 Yeah, I definitely it's interesting that you mentioned that when you were kind of introducing me, you know, it kind of took me back like listening to you do this project was taking me back to Childhood, right? Me and you working on Dad's Mac and trying to figure out how audio levels work. And it's just like, whoa, you know, blowing out our own eardrums because we don't know what we're doing. So it was kind of cool to to ditch that again, right? I'm just like oh Wow, you know, Jacobs doing this thing that, you know, maybe if I give some feedback it'll change something. So it was it was interesting to hear the next episode and realize like oh wow, they're taking my, my feedback with. I don't know, it's Landing somewhere, you know, it wasn't like it was going into a black hole and it's just like I, you know, whatever.

14:10 You know, I'm gonna do my own thing so I think it's it's also a credit to both of you guys. You know, you and you and Jeremy. That the listened, right? And it's just my only perspective, you know, I didn't, I didn't want like up to be a part of it, you know. I guess I'm waiting for my invitation to be a host. Now, if your track record holds true, by the way for Jeff to bow out, once you win the lottery, there's rumors that there were done so yeah I got you bud but I think it I think it's it takes a big person to hear some some well-meaning. No feedback of okay, you know, this wasn't so great or you know what was going on here and and work that into the next episode.

14:55 So, credit credit to you guys. It may seem like I was being big about it, but I was throwing chairs back a lot. Yeah, yeah, you're my freaks out. I do, I freaked out and I was like, well, I guess I'm just not good enough for anything. Now. Yeah, I was, I'm gonna go you a, I'm done leaving knock it ever. Going to podcast again? But I think you can talk me off the cliff. Well, that's what's so good about me being a buffer is because I tell him Grayson said it sucked. And then Jeremy goes on this, huge long, rant, and I text back race and I said Jeremy says, okay, so that's that my role in this whole thing and I feel like I've served my purpose. Well but no, no, it was, it was taken well. I can't really stress enough.

15:47 How much Grayson molded the podcast, especially in the beginning. Episodes like first season, a lot of the changes that came came on recommendations or points that were pointed out by grazin and that's as simple as that. We took the training wheels off and we're kind of, you know, working our way trying to be our own selves now. But if it wasn't for grace and we would never have learned how to ride a bike. So once again Grayson thank you very much but to move on we're let's let's introduce the topic. I know Jake kind of touched on it a little bit when he was introducing.

16:29 Grayson the topic is simulation Theory tonight. Obviously you guys see that when you're hitting play on the Episode but I just want to make it clear that this is a topic that we will be revisiting. Today we are having a conversation with a huge fan of ours about a topic that he wants to talk about. So yes, there was some research done, I will put a little bit of it out there but this topic will be Revisited. We have some really cool ideas to do with this top. Epic and make a really big thing out of it and I'm hoping to have Grayson back in the future to revisit it. But the research for the actual like information dump on simulation Theory and everything behind it. Just isn't, right?

17:25 I've literally been researching this topic, ever since I put down the book on injured cold over almost two months ago and it's so dense, right? As you're not an astro position. I'm not a master of physician. I'm not a right? Yes, I'm not astrophysical. Just stick with that. I'm not a Quantum physicist. That's what it was quantum positions luck. Yeah, Quantum physicists. So, you know, when I'm reading these books, I'm looking at these articles and I'm reading these peer-reviewed reports, and articles and stuff. There's a lot of Googling that I have to do to understand it. Because in order for me to pass it down to you guys, I need to know all of the terminology.

18:15 I need to know what they're doing in these studies and everything and this is something that people go to school. For 8, to 12 years for, and I'm trying to fit it all into two months, and it's just not working for me right now. So I'm not smart enough to bring it all of quantum physics to the table quite yet, but Basically, Cliff Notes Jeremy's a slacker. Exactly. Right guys. Okay. There's a reason why I'm not a Quantum physicist but I'm working on it and I will blow your fucking minds when we finally get to it. But for today we're going to have a really fun conversation with Grayson. I got some pretty fun questions that I would love to hear his opinion as well as Jeff Ken's are and Jake's opinions as well. And we're just going to have a good time. Just chatting away about some simulation Theory. So before we get into Into everyone's thoughts and opinions and and all that stuff.

19:11 What is simulation Theory? The simulation Theory are what is more properly known as the simulation hypothesis. Thanks to Nick Bostrom the founding physicist and philosopher of the theory is a proposal that the reality of our existence is one that is simulation, that is a simulation, rather than a real life physical world. So, major theories behind this hypothesis is that we are living in a simulation of the past by our future selves. We Are Pawns in a video game. Or we are simply just a simulation where all of our existence happens on time table equal to roughly a few nanoseconds in the real world. And of course, the theory that we are all living in a simulation within a simulation, possibly within another simulation. And since we do not simulate life outside of video games, then that would mean that we are at the bottom of the large piles of simulations, that make sense.

20:07 Nope. So let's let's start off with that. Okay? Before we get into like our real opinions about simulation Theory and everything, I just want to start it off with a question. How do you guys feel about the possibility of us being in a simulation? How do you feel? Are you comfortable with it, as it? Does it Kirk you? Or like this is something that that you Even think about when we're not doing this podcast. I'll go first. Yeah, doesn't bother me to think about. Honestly, I know a lot of people probably get some form of anxiety thinking about things like this, but I find a certain level of comfort in it, which is kind of weird, I guess. But yeah, I think about it all the time honestly. And if it's the case, which I believe it is then cool sweet. Who's next?

21:09 All I wants Okay, yeah, got it cans are get it. I what makes me uncomfortable about simulation is. I don't like the idea that I'm not living the life that I'm living. I don't like the idea that somebody else is controlling it, but I think it's very much a possibility. Okay, what about, Grayson Grayson, I want to hear your ideas about this. Well, I was, this was not a topic that I gave much thought about until he. Yeah, until I actually heard Nick Bostrom on the Rogan podcast kind of articulating the simulation argument which is a little different than the simulation Theory, right? And it was very much like, okay, you know, I'm sure we'll get into that or maybe that's topic for the next episode, but We can touch on it.

22:12 Yeah, it just got my gears turning up just like, okay. Well this is a pretty pretty good argument to the fact that we are living in. It's not bulletproof but it's a good argument that we are living in a simulation right now as I go man so I just started thinking well what does that mean? Does that does that really change anything? If we are if we assume that we are is that does that make what we're experiencing any less real You know, and I think I lean more towards, you know, it doesn't really. Matter. I don't know that says more about me than it does about simulation Theory but if everything that we're experiencing is real to us and those around us and it doesn't take anything away from the fact that oh okay you know this mic that I'm talking to is not quote unquote real, you know depending on what Observer you're talking to you know I don't know if that matters at all. That's kind of where I lean I guess I'm more agnostic but I I think it's really interesting.

23:16 Cool. Jacob, you know what? I'm going to say demons? I think that doesn't affect me whatsoever. I don't think about it when I'm when I'm not podcasts, you know, not focusing on anything podcast related. I think it's a fun talking point but to put any Sort of legitimate amount of time into it to study. It is just a tremendous waste of time. Hey, because I agree with what Grayson was saying. It doesn't wouldn't change anything anyway. Okay cool.

23:59 So none of this is real. What's the difference, right? Okay. And it just seems like a really just another Really weird wacky theory that people spend a their entire lives working on and it's just like, wow, what a waste I mean, will I don't necessarily agree. I I think that there is a very good chance that we are in a simulation and that's even coming from before doing some research into I Feel a little bit more comfortable in my thought process about it or in my final thoughts about it.

24:47 Not necessarily final yet because I'm not done, no research but just knowing that there is some sort of evidence out there that that backs my initial feelings about the whole subject makes me feel a little bit better. I don't think it changes anything I'd have to agree with you there. Even if I found out that I am in a simulation, the thing is that I still have children. I still have my wife my animals. This podcast, things that I care about and whether their simulations or not, I still love him. And I'm going to continue to love them, you know. I can see how some people would take the idea old. Okay, let's move into the next next little piece I have here too so there is Stories and I don't have one in particular. Again, I haven't really started writing the notes for this yet more in a research phase.

25:42 But when we, when we come to the actual simulation Theory episode, I'll have the actual story with me. There's one in particular, I'm thinking about, and I can't think of the names. I can't think of the timeframe or anything like that, but there was one person who got so obsessed with the simulation theory in the movie The Matrix where he picked up his phone. Phone. This telephone heard the dial tone said something into the phone from the movie, turn around and killed his parents. Because he believed that they were NPC's in a simulation.

26:22 Has anyone have either any of you guys heard of this before? No, but if we are in a simulation, then what does it matter? Yeah, I heard that story. I don't remember the guys name either but I did. I do remember reading about that. Yeah, it does sound familiar. So again, you know, those are listening. Please forgive me for not having that information right now. I do feel bad but this is again just a conversation piece, right? And that's what I kind of want to say is that, you know, if anybody out there is feeling like they're in a simulation, I don't agree with Jake well about what does it even matter.

27:05 I I do think it matters, you know. It doesn't matter what the people or you know whatever you love. You still love them and you don't want to cause harm to them right? No matter what I do being in the simulation or not, doesn't affect T', the way that I feel about my life and the people that are in it. Well, I mean, but that's, that's basically what I'm saying is that, like, if we are in a simulation then That's just another way of really a signing or saying that nothing has value well, right? Because that's the alternative is that.

27:45 If, if people, if we all believe that we are in a simulation, then technically, we could do whatever we wanted and there would be no real, you know, consequences to our actions. Well, I would rather stimulate my life in my house than in a jail cell, you know, I think that that perspective, Honestly is very black pill perspective on the simulation Theory. Not to say that it's right or wrong. I just think it's a very black pill perspective. Because from my perspective, right like again I'm like I say I'm a firm believer that we live in a simulation but I definitely lean into that idea quite a bit and it it's actually very empowering to me in a lot of ways where I feel, I don't want to use the word manifestation because that's not what it is.

28:34 But it's It's something like when you it from my perspective, when I understand that I'm in a simulation and that I have some level of control over the synchronicities that happen in life, that Things fall into place, much more easily for me, I attend to do things as you would do like a good things because of your faith. I try to do good things because I do think this is a simulation in a form of a test or a school. Hmm. So that's another good topics synchronicities, right? Again I don't have the definition for synchronicities. It real quick.

29:18 Are you talking about Joshua cook? Joshua cook the, the guy who killed his parents. He was 19 years old. Yes, okay. Synchronicities, right? What's a good definition for synchronicities? I got you, you ready? Yep, synchronicity is this. I just Googled it while you're looking, this is the Wikipedia definition which you know, take this with a grain of salt. But synchronicity is a concept first introduced by analytical psychologist Carl Jung to describe circumstances that appear meaningfully related yet, lack it casual connection, right?

29:59 Yeah. So like you were saying a synchronicity, right? We're sitting here, talking about simulation Theory, right? And we go sit on our couch. In the very first thing that's going to pop up as an advertisement is a trailer for the new Matrix movie. Right now, that's a very vague sense of synchronicity. It could be anything. There's been a lot of synchronicities going on lately, like The Simpsons is literally full of synchronicities. We see something happen on the screen with The Simpsons and then we see it happen in real life. A lot of people will say that's a synchronicity and it's not necessarily them telling the future, it is US seeing something that doesn't necessarily have any relationship whatsoever but we're seeing it as a relationship.

30:52 And then of course, there's the spiritual side of synchronicities, you know, I was talking to. So, and so this today and about another person that I haven't talked to in 10 years, literally, today they messaged me on Facebook. The person I was just talking about that. I haven't, I haven't talked to in 10 years, that's a synchronicity. And I know a lot of us have that happen, right? Where you're talking or you're thinking about something and then Out of left field, something along the lines of your conversation or you thought happens and you know, I've heard all kinds of things like they're starting to read your brainwaves and they're creating advertisements or pushing a scenario that matches your brainwave because they're reading your minds dude. I think that it's more of a good piece of evidence. For us, living in a simulation.

31:56 Because what happens in a video game. Synchronous synchronicities happen all the time in a video game and we'll get more into the video game concept of it. Jeff, I heard you could. I saw you come off. Mic are coming to Mike. You want to talk? Yeah, I was just going to say that well two things one the whole reading your brain waves thing. That is partially true so can use. I'm just saying what you tin foil hat back on. Dude it's partially true. But the like synchronicity like the advertising thing I don't know if that's necessarily Sara Lee a synchronicity or if that's just more algorithms knowing what it is that you want. But whatever failed. No, I know you're good. But like, yeah, you know, you're talking about somebody and then they call you right?

32:41 Or I was trying to move, and I was talking to my girlfriend on the phone one night. And just for whatever reason, for no good reason. I pulled up the app to look at houses and an hour prior to me pulling up the app the house that I live in. Now got posted and it's got all the things that we wanted and it's not like I went and Actively looked for this house although I was looking for houses but it just popped in you know, when it was needed, right? That's a really good example of the synchronicity. That's a spiritual synchronicity, right? They have there's different flavors of synchronicities out there. You know, will hear Phil from The Unexplained ink podcast. Talk about synchronicities and he's he talks about a lot of spiritual ones.

33:29 There's Technical technological ones, there's physical ones. There's all kinds of different synchronicities out there but the fact that synchronicities are they exist, right? There's there's really no argument against that. I personally believe that synchronicities do exist. I feel like that's really good fodder for the argument. Yeah. And this is the kind of my point that I was making to Jake a minute ago is. So, I don't know what the key is or what required work is required. In order to make more synchronicities happen in life. I've heard a lot of things Law of Attraction, you know, being on high vibrational levels or whatever the case is. But thinking about this kind of thing, makes me personally try Do the right thing.

34:22 Most like I do, I try not to bullshit people, you know, I just try to do good things as much as possible because in my idea that brings more synchronicities. Hmm. But wouldn't it be fair to say that the reason why synchronicities are an evident or fodder for the fur? Like you could say that. It's evidence for simulation theory is because someone has assigned that to become evidence. For simulation Theory because it's an unproven Theory. Right? So someone says, well, this is an example of it. And this is how we have a really good idea that we're in a simulation. If they hadn't ever said that, then it wouldn't have been even thought of, you know, it could just be just a coincidence, like, everything else, like I could say, on my perspective being like, I just had a friend today, hit me up that I haven't talked to in almost two years, right?

35:20 And I could say, well, I last month was saying that gosh. He completely ghosted. Me and I haven't talked to him and look, here he is, hit me up, you know, that's more than a coincidence, that's a synchronicity because there's unless there's like a timeframe on it, right? I'm not studying this stuff all the time but I could say well that's a synchronicity that's that's how we know or it could just be a coincidence because he missed me and wanted to hit me up and stuff, but it's only evidence for Emulation Theory, because someone has said, oh, when you, when you see things like this, this is how we're. We're have a good idea that we're in a simulation. I don't think it's necessarily in evident like evidence for simulation in that only because there's a lot of people who believe in synchronicities.

36:08 That don't believe in simulation theory, Sure. So it could be a lot of things. Like I said, it could just be or like Jeremy was saying a spiritual thing or whatever it is. It doesn't necessarily, it's not only tied to simulate, Malaysian Theory. It's just one piece of the simulation three puzzle. We got Grayson, I was going to chime in but you guys, you guys kind of covered it, and you can actually cut this out if you'd like, but I thought it's it's interesting that a synchronicity, you know, by from one person's perspective can be, you know, air quotes evidence that we're living in a simulation and to somebody else. The same synchronicity is, you know, more like oh that's that's actually, you know.

36:58 Divine, right? That's that's God working in my life, to put this person in front of me in my in my inbox. No and the same thing happened. So anyway, you guys can cut this out. I know. No, no, that's a great Point. Kind of a touchy. Yeah. That that is because that is exactly how people with different viewpoints with see a synchronicity You know. Forgive me. Jake is that would that be? What is divine intervention? Yeah, that pretty much covers it like I don't know.

37:42 If I were to look into my life, it would be in my divine intervention would be that time that I almost drank myself to death at 150 pounds soaking wet, I blow 0.47 and came out of it with no brain liver kidney damage. You could say that I was divine intervention in a way to keep me from dying because there was something else I was supposed to do. I was supposed to turn my life around. I was supposed to To become a, you know, believer in Christ and preach the gospel. And I knew when I came out of that, that that was why, right?

38:23 It could be something more simple like, you know, my friend hitting me up and just being like, well, now that I'm in this place of being hardcore for Jesus and I know, excuse me, I know that he doesn't believe that this could be my opportunity. Unity to tell him, right? Because there's no one in his life right now that believes in Jesus. You could say that that's divine intervention. So yeah, I agree, you know that's more or less how I would look at it. I really don't believe in coincidence whatsoever, right? Yeah. Think that everything kind of lines up for a Divine Purpose. And that's not excluding the bad things, right? Or what we would perceive as being bad evil things, that there is a direction that we're going in. So yeah, definitely could be divine, could be a God thing. Yeah, I can see how people would have different takes depending on where they fall in the religious non-religious categories, or God or not God or anything like that, you know, right.

39:28 And that's that's good argument, you know, evidence for one person is Is. Hey this happened and I see that as evidence for being or evidence on the side of simulation Theory. And another person will look at and be like that is evidence on the side of creationism, you know, this is a good sorry. I mean, to cut you off. Well, maybe I can Bridge the two together a little bit here, but, you know, Bridget, the idea that we're in a simulation would also have to imply that there was a Creator, or code writer or whatever. Take your pick of the simulation. Just like in the movie, The Matrix Neo meets the architect, Architect is the old bearded man, right? Who created the simulation?

40:19 So in, this is why people have heard me use the term. The architect multiple times partially is because of the Matrix film, right? But it's also just another name for what somebody else might call God, right? And there's a billion names for God, depending on your culture and where you are in the world. But for me that's kind of this. It's almost the same, right? So we live within a creation that was created by a Creator and in this creation synchronicities and or Divine acts happen or miracles happen based on the creation that that there's no difference in my mind of those things. Would you say that we're more likely like the Matrix where we think that we are, like, I don't know. Let's just use as an example.

41:15 Write the Matrix is pretty cool in the fact that like everybody on Earth with the exception of the programs that are inside of the Matrix that are you know that are just code are living their lives thinking that they're living their lives and they're actually trapped inside some pod and there. Wired into the Matrix and they're using their, you know, their energy to run the machines, right. That is a very interesting take on the whole thing is that your opinion of what's going on or is it more along the lines of we are just moving out of action or we're just living Our Lives based off of a code that was already written for us.

41:56 Depends on what day of the week. You ask me sometimes I feel like we're plugged in somewhere living through like an actual simulation, you know, ones and zeros. But generally, no, I generally think that simulation is not even really a good word for it. It's just the word that we have and it is probably more like some form of a Divine creation that we just exist within. I mean, there's even in a lot of religious texts talking about how Now this is a school, a school for Spirit, right? And it's, you know, you are supposed to learn certain things, whether that is Christ or whatever thing people might, you know, be trying to learn in this realm but it was created by a Creator and we live within it and we don't know what's beyond it.

42:46 We don't know what's outside of this creation or the simulation. So it's just it's just a think it's a language issue, more than it is a Front in the thought, I guess. Yeah. Because I mean we all agree words matter, right. So when you when you say something, you know a lot of people don't quite realize that a word has a meaning. Like if I say this is a cup, right? I'm gonna hold a cup, this is a cup what it comes to, they hold water, right? And I call that tool. Now I use to hold water cup.

43:29 Simulation has a meaning to it right. It means a simulation and I like what Jeff said that, maybe the word simulation isn't necessarily the right word for it. And it doesn't match everybody's beliefs because we can be created from a Creator, whether that be God or a architect, right? And we could be created and living inside of a non-physical world. In reality, we live in a world that we see is reality but it's non-physical, we perceive it as physical. But then again, it can also not technically be a simulation, right?

44:26 What is it to simulate something? It means to try something out. Right to test something. So one particular theory in the simulation Hypothesis is that we are a simulation of the past and that our future selves are simulating the past and watching it happen. So we are living. We are where we should be from the future. In the past. We are right where we need to be. There's somebody that says you know what, I want to see how this really badass podcast that ended up taking over the world podcast wise started and there's people from the future watching us. Do this podcast.

45:18 I think it's called The ancestral Theory. That would be a simulation. They are watching it happen to learn something. How did this podcast? Start what really happened in World War 2? Did injured cold really land and talk to Woody derenberger? Did Bigfoot really walk in front of Patterson-Gimlin that day? These are all things that we could be living in for the future to learn about. That is a simulation, right? now, when you get into a video game because the simulation hypothesis Often claims that we are in something similar to a video game that doesn't necessarily.

46:14 Mina simulation. Now, one of the most popular video games are simulated video. Games is the Sims, right? But Jake you and I, we play Arc. Yeah, right. What are we technically? Simulating an arc. Are we simulating anything? yeah, I mean we're simulating I mean, I would want to say caveman, but it's way more than that. I want to say, it's a loose definition, right, right? There's probably a better word for what we do on Ark. But arming? Yeah, pretty much hunting Gathering farming. Yeah. Right War.

46:57 Could we be simulating all that stuff? Yeah, but there's probably better words for it. So is simulation the right term grease and we do you feel about that? I don't think I have a problem maybe as much as as much as you're alluding to about the word. Simulation. I think. I think it's fine. I guess to your Arc Example, right? I don't know art very well but that's a horrible game. You should never play it. Why never got angry at your TV.

47:39 I don't think I would have a problem describing that video game as simulating, you know like okay well what if you know there was a person that lived on this crazy world There Was, You Know, chalk full of crazy dinosaurs and crazy, you know, whatever it's like. Okay what would it take to survive? All right, well, what would it, you know, what kind of son would be in this solar system, you know? Okay, let's put that in the sky, you know? No, you're simulating something that's not in our history. It's not an ancestral simulation, but it is a science fiction, one, right? Like I would consider a lot of like make-believe where, you know, Halo all those games that are, they're not real, but you are simulating. It's like okay, well, what if okay, Humanity has to fight these aliens that come from another, you know, you're the main character and you're in the simulated world rights, just play out based on your input, I guess a A simulation in my, in my mind, I think of a simulation as something where I may make the rules to the simulation the physics, right? But I'm not controlling anything, right? I'm not controlling a player, a simulation would be okay. I want this this this, this I want it to be dark out, no mountain.

48:59 Just a flat field and I want to see a whole bunch of people run around, hit play. Watch it happen. Right, that's not up to me. That's not what we're doing. We're not just hit, you know, we're not. Somebody didn't just hit play and watching it happen. I feel like we are in control, right? It's like a intelligent simulation, maybe, you know, where we are living inside of a simulation, like the world is simulated but we are not. I don't know if that makes sense. Does that make sense? We're not necessarily somebody else's Avatar?

49:40 Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I don't like to think of us being in a simulation as Unlike the ancestral simulation where we're just being simulated to be learned about, or watched from the future, what I like to think is that we are sentient within the simulation, it's us. Our actual sentience is in the simulation for a purpose for a reason, right? Like, we're here to learn something or to do something in the simulation and it is us. And like this guy, you're talking about who killed his parents, you know? Like he had a totally Construed conception of what it means to be in the simulation, right, right. Like you were saying like, you love your kids, even if they are simulation, no, no.

50:25 Like they're sentience is also in the simulation. So they are not simulations, right? You are not a simulation, but the, the world and the events and even the universe, perhaps is the simulation that our sentience resides in. Thank you, that is exactly what I was trying to get through. There's no, I just went along Route. What's the difference between that and reality then? Because that would be I want to say that the idea of you know all this being a simulation or this is like the Matrix that is that there's you know, If it's just a parallel to reality, what we what we know what we experienced, what we're doing right now is, you know, just say like we her all controlling drones and the drones did whatever. We told them to or like a character in a video game, right?

51:13 I want my character to run forward and then turn left and then I'm controlling this vessel, and I'm running forward, and I'm turning left, and I'm doing whatever it is. I want to do controlling this vessel, because I'm sentient in this game. So it's just parallel to reality. So then what's the Point. Well let's let's just assume for a second. I know people are going to probably be like you're you're contradicting yourself Jeff. Let's just assume space is real and what they told us. Hey it's just an idea. What if we are in the mothership traveling to Earth to populate the Earth and in that 10 trillion light year journey journey or whatever, right? We we have to be plugged into a simulation of the Earth in order to practice and get things.

52:04 Right. So that when we get to the Earth, we don't do the things that we see right now when we watch the news, Everybody bear with us while we take this quick break. So, I think it's interesting that you guys are, I guess the Matrix version of the simulation hypothesis or theory is I guess the most comfortable, right? I've just like, okay, if we, you know, just as a thought experiment, it's like, okay we're living and this, you know, back to the where we started like this, Mike that I'm talking into is simulated. But I myself, although my Guitar is simulated like I exist, right?

52:54 I'm in a vat somewhere and I need to take the pill the wake up but also you know my wife is also in a vast somewhere, you know, and it's just like okay so we're all real. We're just all playing this Collective video game. I think it's interesting that That it's not. I don't know. I guess it's not necessary for that version of the simulation to be true, right? I mean there is, I guess it's simpler, right? Because you take out the problem of Consciousness, right? Which is like oh it's impossible to simulate Consciousness. I think that's one of the biggest arguments that comes up against. The simulation argument, right?

53:38 Is that oh it's not possible, you know, Consciousness is not physical, so therefore can't be simulated. But I guess with the Matrix version, it simplifies things, you know, Consciousness is not in the simulation or I guess it's not built into the simulation. We are providing the simulation Consciousness through ourselves but I guess that's a much bigger question. You know what is consciousness and How does that fit into all this, right? Calves are you're quiet. I'll talk so much Ken's our concerns. Just soaking it all in. What you guys have to say here? What do you have to say here? Ken's are honestly I don't know, the simulation kind of melts my brain.

54:31 The way I view, it is kind of like the video game, but we're all. I'm the main character in the video game, Jeremy Sizzle, main character, and his video game, and Jeff is and Grayson's. All in his, we're all on our own video game timeline. So we're all experiencing a simulation kind of differently from the next person. I don't know. I it's it's to me. It's like online. Yeah, like somebody is. Almost trying to not necessarily control me and my actions but the world around me which is why we experience such crazy things that happen worldwide. Anything.

55:19 Really like world wars, for example, like Why am I experiencing that? Why are we experiencing that, is somebody creating that to test us is somebody doing that to test me test you It's almost like someone's trying, it bothers me because I don't like the idea of somebody trying to control the world around me. I like to be able to control my own world and my it make my own decisions and the simulation bothers me because it's like somebody else is trying to take that from me. So let's talk about Quantum, indeterminacy in determinacy that word, right?

56:03 This is the theory in quantum physics that everything is purposely incomplete until needed by the physical world in layman's terms. This would be the equivalent to, when you're playing a video game and you're watching the world render around you. This is done to save computing power and allow for a more seamless gameplay experience. Also, applies to the famous question, if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around here, it doesn't make a sound, no, no, no, nope, okay. So, Okay, we'll stop right there for a second, right? If the tree falls in the woods and nobody's around to hear it, does it make a sound?

56:44 No why? And because I know you're against simulation Theory, right? But if it didn't make a sound, that would be a very good piece of evidence for simulation Theory because that tree is out of render, right? So let me put it into video game terminology. And I'm going to use ARC for example, because I'm talking to Jake here. We fly our. We teleport to another teleportation pad right and it happens instantaneously or however it takes. However long it takes to load. Right. But do we know for a fact there's anything there that's going to kill us.

57:27 Is there a T-Rex there or Giga? That is going to kill us right away. We don't know until we get there, right? Okay, so technically is there a giga there? Before we teleport to that position or is it determined once we get there? I would say because of my luck on that game that it's already there, I could be wrong, but it seems like it's waiting for a wyvern to be tired so I can eat both of us. Mike isn't this? The famous famous cat experiment will get the T-Rex is there and it isn't there at the same time?

58:09 Exactly. And we're getting there and that's kind of where I'm getting to with this tree falling, right? If it Doesn't make a sound and the next time someone shows up in that portion of the woods and that tree is just on the ground, did it ever actually go through the motions of falling? Or did it when it rendered in? Was it just on the ground? Okay, so bear with me and I could be completely wrong and I probably am wrong. What's up? You're welcome. Oh okay, I said hold on. So sound is just vibrations. It's right, it's true. But it's not really sound until someone is around 2 or something that can hear is our round to translate those vibrations into a noise.

58:59 So if nothing is around there to translate those vibrations into a noise, then it's not really sound, it's just vibrations. So my question to you is, is the past happening or does a pass only happen once it's witnessed by. Somebody, that doesn't make any sense. But anyway, it's literally literally what you're telling me. Well, the other side of that is that everything vibrates in the universe or on Earth, depending on who you're talking to me, or Jeff, but everything vibrates. So technically everything makes sound. So even you, we just can't perceive it mostly time.

59:41 So even if that tree, whether it falls, or it does, Fall it standing, it's making sound 100% of the time all the time. So, okay, that's and know. Okay. So let's set the smartest thing I've ever heard you say, we miss, not, I've heard this morning on this and I work center for six hours a day. And this is the thing I came up with and I was just like, hold on. Yes. And no. All right, so you're talking about sound waves, right? Let's change the question. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to see. See it, does it fall? I'm going to say no and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna defer to the what's that experiment.

1:00:26 The observer effect, the Schr��dinger's cat will get there. I'm literally getting to that point, but what I'm trying to prove to Jake here then yes, is always. So you think it does fall? Yeah. We because of the nobody there to absorb the light because what is what is site? Well, no, there isn't change, just because there's a blind person standing next to it and can't see it. It doesn't change the physical. It's hitting a different sense, right? If nobody's there to to smell taste touch here. Okay, who is he?

1:01:09 My house down because it's a simulation, it doesn't matter. Let's move on. Let's move on another way of describing Quantum. Indeterminacy is by saying that all All outcomes exist unless one particular outcome is observed. In the book. The simulation hypothesis by R is why verk he explains this by explaining that before entering a movie theater, every seat is a possibility to sit at to enjoy the movie. But once you witness the availability, the outcome changes dramatically, no matter. Whether you see nobody else in the theater or crammed pack theater. And once you sit down that c is your new reality.

1:01:49 And yet another example is that of Schrodinger's cat an exercise used often when explaining Quantum indeterminacy and more specifically Quantum superposition. The exercise asks this question if a cart was left in the Box it's a cart. If a cat was left in a box for an hour with a flask of radioactive material, which opens once an internal monitor detects. The radioactivity after the hour is the cat Dead or Alive, the answer. According to the Copenhagen interpretation is that the cat is both dead and alive and then outcome hasn't been determined. Until there is an observer once that box is opened and a cat is witnessed either dead or alive.

1:02:39 Then the outcome is written with 100% certainty. So Ken's are since your brains nice and fried. If I put a cat in a box in front of you a wooden crate and I threw a flask in there with radioactive material mmm and I put a geiger counter in there. If that Geiger counter measured, even the smallest inkling of radioactive material. It would shatter that Flats can kill the cat. Right? Yeah, so I closed the crate up.

1:03:23 We walk into the other room, come back. Can't hear nothing coming from the crate soundproof. Right? No. Way of telling whether this cat is dead or alive. Before you open it up, I ask is the cat dead or is the cat alive. What's your answer? I honestly would say dead, okay? Because you have a flask full of radioactive material, hmm. And the sensor for said, radioactive material, if it senses it, it's just going to Explode, right? But what if there isn't a leak Well, I'm just going to assume there is okay because I assume the worst in everything. So we open the box, right?

1:04:11 And literally history is not written. We can't tell whether the cat is dead or alive. We open it up. The cat is dead, we do some tests on it, we find out. The cat has been dead for 15 minutes and therefore we can determine that at the 15 are at the 45-minute mark. There was some sort of leak of radioactivity. The geiger counter caught it shouted. The flask killed the cat and therefore, the past was written by witnessing. The present. Are we, are we all on board here? Yep. Okay, so here's my opinion on this. I think that our sentience has the ability to change the outcomes of things, right? So this is part of the simulation. I think that it's almost like this is why I didn't want to necessarily use the word manifestation earlier, but it's almost like a form of that in a way where I think that, if you believe something, like, Ken's are believes, the cat would be dead.

1:05:10 And the cat would be dead if we all for whatever reason, truly believe that the cat Wouldn't be dead than it wouldn't be dead. I think that there's a certain there's a certain power to that. And speaking of that, this cat is rubbing his face on my microphone. But is it dead or alive? But you know, what does that make? Any sense to you guys? Yeah, yeah. But there's a lot of, there's a lot of experiments and a lot of evidence for putting energy out into the world and getting a reaction. Eight. So, and that actually goes into while why there's these these group efforts to put energy out into the out, into the world to get a certain outcome, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the whole idea of placebos, right? I mean, there's actually a can't remember the study, but they actually had cured cancer in some people using nothing but placebos, because those people truly believed they were getting treatments.

1:06:15 Then as soon as they learn that they weren't getting treatments, cancer came back and a lot of those people die from the cancer. Hmm that's on like an extreme extremely small scale. I mean it's it's you could say that the positive energy that they had from the placebo had nothing to do with it at all and the cancer was just going to take its course anyway that at some point it was just going to get worse or materialize then kill them. Like it had nothing to do with how they thought the drugs, help them or dinner. You saying it was a coincidence that you don't believe in. What do you mean? Well, if you had cancer and I gave you a placebo and made you believe that it was a treatment and then your cancer went away.

1:07:02 Is that a coincidence or is it because you truly believe that the cancer was going away from the treatment? Mmm. I just don't think it's evidence one way or the other. It can't be definitively stated that. Oh, this person will do their way out of the situation. And it also can't be said that the cancer was always going to do this. You know, it's just, I think that's why I have sometimes I have a problem with like, Placebo examples because it's like, well you the other side of that could just as easily be what Jake is saying, right? It's just like, well, this was just always going to happen if you didn't treat this person. I'm sure this is the course that was going to happen.

1:07:43 So I agree. I think it's evidence. It's not proof though. You know, if it was one time, one guy, then maybe, but if I'm not mistaken, this study was done on multiple people and the outcomes were the same. So you're saying that like well when that be different than, you know, positive energy and Good Vibes. That's you, truly believing that your body is fighting something and your body starts reacting in a way that it's fighting back a cancer until you find out that you've just been lied to. And then you lose all hope. And you lose that, that will to fight like people. That is like, you know, people survive, all kinds of craziness. We're just like, yeah, should definitely should have killed you, you know?

1:08:26 It's like you definitely you know it's pretty observable that a human body bleeds out and so you know so long but that whole struggle to survive and stuff against insurmountable odds and people come out of these crazy situations is like there's really no reason why they should still be alive. You know, based off of observed reality is over and over and over and over and over again or like so much, so long trapped in a mine shaft and stuff until they were finally rescued. And it's like because they had that will to Survive. And so their body pushed versus someone who just gave up and just, you know, died. But if it's like, if positive energy and all that, actually existed, then, I mean, I doubt, there'd be genocides in Africa right now.

1:09:13 Like it would just, it would have more in effect than just a person fighting cancer. You know, it would be more observable on a larger scale. If more people were involved, there would be Matic changes in the world versus the course that were on right now, which is like, well, they're not doing a very good job. Well, you're gonna get me into like a whole other thing, but basically, that's the whole idea of the like, divide-and-conquer idea, right? Is because we're all being distracted and confused and fed negativity all the time. That's why we don't see greater good happening in the world. So it's in my opinion, that's by Design and this isn't even an argument for simulation Theory, honesty. This is just a an For the power of human thought, right? Is the cat that are not in the box, and I just think that having a belief one way or the other has an effect on that somehow, all right?

1:10:07 Let me finish up Quantum indeterminacy, but why are we talking about Quantum indeterminacy and superposition and rizwan werkes book, the simulation hypothesis. He discusses, how video games. Use, a practice would like this, to save on Computing ability, Video Games, like World of Warcraft. And if you Around long enough with us, you know, Jake and I play a game called Arc, use World Building engines and gpus. In order to bring the simulated world, you are playing into existence as the Observer moves among the world. This allows the GPU to process the world needed by The Observer only when called upon and the rest of the world is left in what is known.

1:10:51 Stasis in stasis, the world doesn't exist, therefore Or nothing happens or better yet. According to Quantum superposition everything is happening at once and the actual outcome doesn't show on the screen into a player arrives in the vicinity of the event. Because before you get there, all possible outcomes are possible. So, this kind of brings up the question. That is a popular talking point when it comes to the simulation hypothesis. Gpus processing ability in order for this to be a computer simulation, in any way, shape, or form. And we have multiple different Players. Let's say all five of us are our player, right? And you know, most assume that there's some NPCs out there. I'm sure you guys have met some NPCs. I know, I know, for fuck's sake, I have met some NPCs for sure. Right.

1:11:52 I love to cut me off on the road, right. One of the biggest arguments against the whole idea that the generating power would have to be. So immense is that, no, it doesn't have to be so nuts because you literally only need to process. The stuff that's being observed. Going back to the tree falling in the woods. Right. The tree falls. Nobody's there to witness. It does actually fall technically in a simulation. No, it wouldn't actually fall. It would just be on the ground. Next time, someone was there to observe it. The process of it actually falling would never actually happen. We have things in this world and I'm not saying this, as what I really believe, I'm just bringing the the simulation Theory to the table.

1:12:46 But we are influenced by a lot of different things. We wake up. We look at our phone. It says that there was a plane crash right in Missouri. Did the plane crash until you observed? Something saying that it happened. Was that a reality until you observed it? So you wake up History has not been written you read that. There was a plane crash in Missouri. Now from your point of view, in your simulation, There was a plane crash, Missouri. That is another example of the past being written by the president.

1:13:37 And nothing was actually. Computed, no gpus. No. Nothing were used to. Actually simulate anything, it just happened. What do you guys think about that? Well, I think a lot of things about that. Honestly, I'm personally under the belief, being the conspiracy guy that most of the things that we hear about happening aren't actually happening. Here's a story. So, you know, to use your example, if a plane crashes, you know, did it crash or did it crash after we knew about it or whatever, or is it possible that it didn't happen at all and it's just information being fed to us.

1:14:22 So I don't know, I think it's also that's an interesting example with the plane crash because it involves, you know, death, suppose the police. You know. So I think that's an interesting example. I've always liked the example of, you know Adams, right. So it's just like, okay, yeah, we can all our batter know if we all can we can all kind of agree that it's like okay there's Adam's you know this desk is made of atoms, right? If I took out a super microscope and rip this desk of Part. I would see all these little things happening, right? Or I would see all the fibers and everything that was done to make this desk, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way right now, right, I'm not looking at the inside of this desk right now, it's I can feel it, but until I take a hammer to it, I don't know what it's made of, right, I have a general understanding, so I think to Jeremy's point, you know, you can save a lot of computing power by not simulating things.

1:15:19 You know, to the to the nth degree, you know, you don't need to simulate most of the ocean, right? Until there's like a person there that's that's in the ocean and then taking a water sample and putting it under a microscope and back. Oh yeah. Look, there's bacteria in here, you know, that kind of thing, right? Until it's observed and it would save a lot of computing power. But is that technically evidence or is that just An argument. On how isn't an argument, cutting the puzzle piece to make it fit. Yes. I kind of think it is and I think the reason is if there is some architect right or God that's able to create this entire simulation, which would potentially Encompass the entire universe.

1:16:09 Why do we assume that there's a limitation on computing power on that level for looking at it from our perspective? Of course, there's limitations. But on that level there might not be limitations that that does come up You know, from time to time in the simulation hypothesis, right? It does to use a really old example that I used a long time ago, is that We're talking from the point of view of an ant, right? The ant knows nothing but the world that it lives in, right? It walks in our grass and it sees these tall tall plants, which we call grass, and we see it as something small, because it know anything about the world that we live in that we humans live.

1:16:58 It doesn't know anything about flight. Airplanes flying through the sky about going to work every day. Does it? Anything about how Logistics systems work, anything like that. No, it only knows what the ant knows. so if I were to go down in size and be able to communicate with an ant and tell them about the internet about Quantum physics, right? Well, it says we're on this. If I talk to him about quantum physics are they going to understand at all? Or they can be like yeah, none of that.

1:17:38 Shit is possible. Are we looking at this, from the point of view of an ant, are we seeing it with limitations that we apply in our own lives, or that are applied to our own lives? And I think that that would that's one of the things that, you know, so far thinking you're out here in Jeff talk. That's something I agree with Jeff, is that I think we're looking at it the wrong way by even thinking that we need computing power. Because that's a very human point of view. Is that we're trying to say Jeff. Yeah it but also there is something called the sentient World simulation you guys ever heard of this I have and it's literally it exists in our reality.

1:18:26 Now where these institutions have created this world? This sentient World, simulation where they just input, all of the data, you know, from everything that they've ever collected, and all the trends. And Anything else and they have a world simulation right now and they predicts things and all kinds of stuff and that that's just using human capabilities. They're able to create a sentient World simulation. So imagine something Way Beyond what we have and what it could simulate is that what the Simpsons are using could be man. I mean I got an R. I got a paper pulled up right here from Purdue University talking about sentient, World, simulation, and so on. It's definitely a thing.

1:19:11 And I don't know how in depth or how good the sentient World simulation is because I don't have access to it, but, you know, it's a continuously running model of the real world. So who knows how, you know, Advanced the simulation that we're in is could be incredibly advanced Okay. I think that in order to form my opinion on it, I would have to know which model we're looking at that. We are all controlling ourselves and we all exist but somewhere else and we're controlling this or that the NPC theory that we exist but no one else exists or the not so crazy MPC theory that most of us exist but some of us are definitely computer generated code In order to form a more in order to for my opinion on it because there's different, there's a different thought process to each one. If it was, we are a we are real, right? We're controlling ourselves but everyone else is an NPC affecting our reality then that's when it goes into my original point of what is it matter? If that guy killed, his his family, what does it matter? If any of you guys died, because, None of you are actually real.

1:20:33 I'm the only one that's real. So, everything would be brought down to the value of. I should never donate to charity. I should never do anything like that because people don't matter because they aren't real anyway, which would be a really frightening thing to, to exist if you actually believe that because it wouldn't matter if you walk down the street and decided one day, I want to just rock this kid in the face, you know, just because they there next to me. Me because they're not real. Anyway, you know, it would it wouldn't take anything away from what Hitler did because he wasn't actually real killing real people. It was all a simulation and you're just observing it from your timeline, right?

1:21:16 It could be really, really whacked out. The idea that there's most of us are real, but but there's definitely some simulations some NPCs out there. I could get behind that one. In that like we've all seen that person in the grocery store, that's just standing there staring off into space and it just like they are just wasting time right there supposed to be here to make this thing feel more realistic. It's funny. I don't believe this whatsoever, but you know, that one would be more in line with reality, right? Or like or like what kinds are was saying, being cut off, they are always written in code to travel that path.

1:21:59 You just happen to be to be behind them in your reality. So when they cut you off, they weren't actually cutting you off. That was the path. That was written for them to travel like people driving in cars in Grand Theft Auto, you just happen to be behind them when they were going to make that change into that other lane, okay? Or the other one, which is the more Matrix U version, which is that we all exist somewhere else. But we are affecting this reality and we're all just kind of playing together and we just don't know it. You know that that's the way reality is in which case It would be just a parallel of this world because there would be consequences, you know, you would be killing an actual person and it would be affecting their body somewhere else. So I would have to know the model of which one we're talking about or if it's none of those.

1:22:48 And it's something else entirely to really formulate, a good opinion. But from where I sit right now, this is like I said an incredible waste of time, but that's just me, right? I personally subscribe to the idea that most of us are sentient within the simulation and a smaller percentage of us are NPC's. You guys ever heard of the Dead internet Theory, know, basically suggests that I don't remember the exact percentage. I'm just going to throw number 75 percent of the Internet is just artificial intelligence. Like zombified profiles is where I believe the term is. Yeah, the that most of the profiles you interact with online and most of the content that's on Mine is just generated via artificial intelligence.

1:23:35 It's not actually a person behind the profiles and that's like a big chunk of the internet. So I think I think it is. Most of us are sentient and then there's just a lot of things being simulated to fill out the simulation, I see digital asset so that would so that would go into your idea that when people talk about the population on Earth, that it's not even close to what they're saying, right? Right? I made a connection. So just yeah, just as I mean to be contrarian, I guess kind of the three options that Jake laid out. I think there might be a fourth one and maybe I missed it and you're number two there. But that our, how do you guys feel about the possibility that we are all NPC's, right?

1:24:27 So, I know this is like one of the darker ones because Okay, you know, there is no physical body that Grayson is tied to outside of the Matrix, right? I'm just part of, I'm part of the simulation and the simulation is so Advanced that I believe that I am conscious, right? Like I, of course, I must be real, you know? I am real. So I think that is kind of a fourth option is that we're all NPCs. And our, you know, our descendants are the the ones that are simulating us because as I think the Matrix problem or the Matrix version of this right, where, you know, they can get a little weird and a little dicey Wyman, guess the whole topics Dyson weird. But it's it's if yeah you know if it's like if we're all plugged in right physically plugged in and of that if my Wife's simulation and my simulation, you know, it's like, oh cool.

1:25:27 We met each other in the simulated world. You know what? We have a son, you know? So did our son get plugged in at that time or? Or is he not real right? Is that I think that's where you can get a little weird of just like once you start tying things back to some biological that somewhere in the future, where it I guess instinctively in my head, you know. Just for the sake of the argument is it makes a lot more sense. That no no no. It's all Girl Code. And we're all, you know, it's real to us. It doesn't make it any less real to the NPC's in Arc. Right. This is like know that dinosaur really did that to that person, but it's all. We're all NPCs.

1:26:09 You know, that's an interesting idea. There's a document, I've talked about a few times. I don't know if I've ever talked about on this show, but it's, it's something that I'm going to do an episode on in the future here, but I'm just going to give you like a little taste of it. It's the analysis. And Iseman of Gateway process. It's an Army intelligence command document that came out. And I think 1984 and it says in there directly. It says the universe is one gigantic hologram and your mind is also a hologram that decodes the universal hologram. So that could be what you're saying with this fourth option that we are just Ones and zeros or something, they could also be dis information from intelligence agencies do too.

1:26:51 So it's not say that true. So this hologram include space. It says the universe is one gigantic all around. The universe has been expanding space. Alright. We're back on Space. Being real guys. Yeah, the next week when we think it's fake again Sonia, it's funny. Because I have to say this, like every time we talk about space but I don't necessarily think there's nothing up there. I just don't think the information that were given about space. Is you said I don't think I don't think they give us the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So I speak facetiously.

1:27:37 Nice. A space is fake. I think that there's a realm there. It's just not everything. And only what they Dulles. I told someone at work. The day. The space was fake and they start screaming and cussing at me. It was actually pretty funny until I get that a lot, it was great. Just like, I like all right man, it's not that big of a deal just because you're a space believer nerd. Alright, last question, we're already at it. Hour and a half here. We're is our cancer, because he's just so quiet. Mmm, this whole time is crazy. Welcome back to the show. Ken's are high, thanks here the whole time. But so, let's all play ball here. And let's say that we are in a simulation. What's the purpose kinds are Oh, I don't know what's the purpose? You're right on me.

1:28:36 You want to be a host what did Jake say and and that the episode we recorded on a flyer, hit the ground or on a show called Tales from the Animal Kingdom. Awesome show. We did a great job there, check it out. But yeah, flyer hit the ground Ken's are what is the point of the simulation? That's actually A, a good question. I don't know. I maybe just to exactly like you said at the beginning, maybe it's just too. Figure out how to get it, right? Hmm, and not destroy the universe, or the planet or whatever.

1:29:18 Okay, the plane. Yeah, the plane. That's a good word. Thank you, Jeff. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna agree. I think that that's the the whole point of if we are in a simulation, I think the point is, it's a school. It's a form of school, whether it's a spiritual school or physical school, you know, if you take the physical route, it's yeah. It's so that we don't fuck things. Up and cause world wars and cause whatever, right? The polar ice caps to melt, or take your pick of the thing, or it could be as spiritual school, you know, where you're supposed to find your faith, or whatever the case is. I think that it's just a school for us to do one of these things. This is soul school and that's what the attention of eventually leaving. The simulation is kind of what you're saying, I would hope so. I like to think that that's the case, right? Like in The Matrix movie they get unplugged. Now they're in Zion even though it's a terrible fucking place in there being chased by human eating monsters or robots, or whatever.

1:30:19 But yeah, I mean, you know, let's take like the faith angle, right, you die. And if you follow the instruction book before leaving Earth, right? The what is the anagram people people say for the Bible, the book I don't know, but you get what I'm saying, right? You do the things you live by the golden rules, you find the faith, whatever it is, you get to go on to Valhalla, right? When that reality, be the same for everybody. Because you said earlier, you're like you're God or whatever he's called. And all these different cultures and stuff. I think you said there's a million different examples. I mean, technically speaking, if you're bringing in Hinduism, there's 320 million, Hindu gods and goddesses right. So, but the reality at the end would be the same for everybody if that was a circumstance.

1:31:17 And all of these gods and goddesses and stuff. Call themselves different things. They have different attributes, they're not the same at all, they're not compatible. So we're one version of this deity is telling you to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, the other ones telling you to kill people. Yeah, unless it was like a different assignment for each person, I think it could be a different assignment for each person or you could, I could take it from your perspective, where there is one assignment and you have to figure out what that assignment is and you have to follow the assignment. So it could be either way. I don't think there's any way for anybody to know for sure, which is why you have so many different religions and things like that out there is because nobody truly knows we all do, right?

1:32:04 People have believed In faith that they know what the truth is. But I don't think that know anybody could say with certainty, that anyone is wrong or right? You just have to go on faith, who it says, tall order mmm-hmm, Jake? What's the end goal, right? What's what's, the purpose or the point? Yeah, I mean what would be the point of being a simulation? Because this is something that you were asking earlier, right? It would be for the fun of it, for the person running it. So you would think way and what's the game that they play in? Think about working out, man? Think about, like, not the Sims, but there was a version. Version like a bigger scale version of The Sims. I used to play on a second later. It was, it was a long time ago, I think Grace. And I used to play it.

1:33:01 Honestly, this is I'm going to dig in back like 20 years right now and you could create more control a city, all right? You're probably died of dysentery. You could create a city and buildings, and amusement parks, and all kinds of stuff, and there was kind of coon and peace. Is it lived in it? I get it might have been tycho's or something. RollerCoaster Tycoon, there you go and then you could also attack the city with like aliens and UFOs and like you know, natural disasters and all kind of stuff SimCity. Is that it? Okay. Yes, I'm sitting. If we said that all of those NPCs thought that they existed and you or me as the person that created the city and created, you know, Society for them and then attack them with Natural, disasters and stuff.

1:33:53 I'm playing a video game. But what if they thought they were real, right? And it's just like, let's see how many tornadoes I need to make to turn the city into nothing. Okay. If this was a circumstance where we were all stuck in a simulation, then I would imagine that it would be for the enjoyment of the person, creating the simulation. So, Jake is the kid with a magnifying glass burning all the ants. Well, that's all that we have right now. At our disposal, every single version of any simulation we've ever played except for those really dumb games of, there's no Way to win, like, Flappy Bird. But we're all, we're all too bad. Yeah. Take that we're all playing our characters and the NPC's exist for our enjoyment to play through the mission into when, you know, we are outside of that particular simulation. So the only thing I really have to go off of is that right when I play?

1:34:52 I don't play it anymore but when I played Grand Theft Auto or Whatever everybody. With the exception of being online, everybody that was there was created by the game to increase my enjoyment with the game to play through the missions and do all that sort of stuff, right? If they had existed in a reality where they or they had existed in a spot where they thought that they actually existed, right? And they're coming out to me telling me those dumb, NPC, things like giving me hints for the game and stuff but that's like they thought, Thought in reality that that's you know hey I'm giving you a tip, you should use an umbrella when it's raining, you know, you have it cold quite as quickly, you know, whatever it was but it's all built for my enjoyment as the person playing the game but I'm saying, as a more broader sort of thing, if we are all those NPCs and we're all existing, that's the model I'm using right now, which is Grayson's model for all NPCs.

1:35:52 And somehow this Consciousness exists in a form that we think that we really exist. But in reality we are our quote unquote, Free Will and our decisions is us already playing through. It's like fate already playing through. What is written for us to do for the enjoyment of the person? Or the being or whatever? That created the simulation? That's as deep as you're going to get from me and I refuse to believe it. Make sense. Yeah, makes all of a sudden school. Thank you. Yeah you're the most sense. What do you know? You're an NPC. Okay. So what do you think man? You think you exist?

1:36:37 Yeah, this is a Of all the stuff we talked about, right? This is probably the biggest questions like, well, why you know, I forgive you if we give this to you. Yeah. Okay. We're all in the simulations. Like, well, why? So there are a couple answers that I have just remembered they kind of stuck in my head of like, oh, you know, this could be interesting and I think that you know, one of them is a little I don't know a little more futile than the other so I guess we can start with that. Is that?

1:37:18 And just as a little background, is just an example. So I work for a Solar Company and I just designed systems all day, right? So part of that step is to simulate how much production is this system going to Output, right? So I have control of a lot of the parameters of this tool, you know, I can just like, okay this is going to produce, you know. X power. Well, what happens if I put it 500 feet in the air? You know, does that change anything or what? If what if I put it in Antarctica? You know, I was like, oh well, let's simulate there, but there are certain parameters that I can't change, right? Like, oh, this is where the sun is, right? This is, you know, this is historical weather data for the area, you know, stuff like that. I don't have control over.

1:38:04 So what if The simulators right? This is off the model of were all NBC's, right? There's no, there is no Matrix. We are, you know, we're all the lines of code. You know, what if the simulators are simulating, okay, what would Humanity look like if America won the war, right? And then all these parameters, just play out. So it's not that it's fate necessarily, right? Like one variable was input just like, okay, Germany, Germany loses And everything just plays out right and all these NPC's go about their daily lives and one thing leads to another and here we are right and then just as easily, there would be another simulation where Germany wins and you know and whatever base reality is, who knows. So I think that's an interesting one because we do that stuff now, right?

1:38:56 That's my daily job is just like changing variables and see what the outcome is just. It's not necessarily for fun but it's to educate yourself about. How changing one little detail? Can drastically change? You know the result that you get at the end? So it's like the cause of the Multiverse Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Well like I we didn't even touch the simulation argument, which kind of implies that there are a countless number of simulations and we're just one of them. and then I think the other one, which we also didn't touch on which is kind of the most sci-fi and I don't know fun one I think is If we assume at some point, we develop a, I right and to avoid a Skynet situation. We before turning this thing online, right? We're like, oh my gosh, we created this artificial intelligence and we know that it's just going to outpace us in every way.

1:39:58 How do we ensure that this AI sees the value of humanity, right? Sees the value of keeping humans alive. It's like, well, maybe it would make sense to give this a i the experience of all the humans that ever existed. Right? Good and bad. And then we are just an ancestor simulation for this AI. You know, teaching it that it's like, hey, this is what humanity is, you know, and it would be this simulation a billion times over or whatever it takes, I don't know. But maybe this is like, we're a Fail-Safe for Terminator 2, so that that doesn't happen. And I don't know. I think that's kind of a more goofy one. But it's, it was plausible, you know? Yeah, I like the first one.

1:40:43 The first one is right out of Philip K, dick and his man in the High Castle. It's just you guys ever read that or think there's a show now, but That's a. That's right out of there. So I'm going to go ahead and go down a different route. I'm going to end this episode as if it was a season finale of a Futurama season and make everybody cry or series. You know, after how many times Futurama ended What if I'm too many.

1:41:25 What if? There's only a few humans left in order to feel. What it felt like in the past to be surrounded, by multiple humans. We plunged ourselves into a reality in which we can feel not alone again. We simulated the world most of us are NPCs. And the few that are in their little Chambers hooked up, are the only ones left to live? and we're really here just to feel The Human Experience again.

1:42:11 I heard that on another podcast and I was like, wow, that's a tearjerker right there. That's super dark bro. It's super dark, right? But super dark, it's almost as dark as Grayson's second idea being because I thought that was dark. I was like, damn I really just like an AI living through this experience and then wow, bro, ya bum bum me out right here. It is just wear what you wore today. Was it your decision or was it already written in code? That you would put those socks on with those shoes in those pants and that shirt? Hopefully, those boxers and warm walk out door.

1:42:52 It makes me question whether or not this is actually my favorite sweater or not. Now, do I think I'm like this thing, you know, Jeremy, it turns out, I have no opinions on that. Clock, that you gave me with Bigfoot on it. Hey, Terry hate it. Oh yeah, because No, my real self likes it. I'm gonna rebuild no. And, you know, when I when I heard that I was like tease me and that's like Like the end of the true policy season finale. I'm like, because I don't know if you guys watched Futurama Ken's are, I think I heard you say that, you have solutely. I've watched like your every time they end that series man. It's like I'm not crying.

1:43:38 You're crying. Because you were saying that all I could think of was the episode where farnsworth's parents got plugged into a simulation world. Yes, yes. Exactly. Oh man. So That's it. Grayson, thank you for coming on, man. I hope that you enjoyed the conversation. Yeah, of course, guys. It's long overdue and it's nice to finally. Yeah, talk with Jeff and Ken's are too. I gotta say this whole experience has been kind of surreal when I heard you guys, Jeremy, giving your little Spiel at the beginning of the episode, and then Jacob, you know, coming in as just, like, introducing the host.

1:44:23 So, I have heard that so many times now, in my ears and then, Realize like oh man, I got to talk here in a second, you know. It's 40 is very cool. Thank you guys. I appreciate the invite. Hey, absolutely. Like I said, well, once we get everything hammered out for the for like a really good Deep dive into simulation Theory, where we're dumping out all the evidence and going over all the quantum physics and theories and stuff, we'll have you back on but I think that this was a fun little experiment, you know, this was a wasn't something that I was initially wanting to do for Grayson's first episode on the show because Aires really working hard to try to get this all hammered out for him so that you can come on and have his mind blown and you know, give them the infinite Rabbit Hole experience but this conversation was cool. It was really cool.

1:45:22 I enjoyed all of your points of views and you You guys did not disappoint. I love these free flow conversations. Man, these, this is my favorite way to do things. Well, don't get you some GIF, man. Yeah Grayson don't get worked up too. Worked up over it. It's probably not even real anyway. And with that being said, you just kind of wraps up what would normally be our season break. So these freeform chat conversation episodes, that Jeff loves so much. We will probably throw a few more in whenever we need a break because we're moving to a new format but we have some really exciting interviews coming up. Next week, we'll be talking to Sarah Cooper of the snallygaster museum in Frederick County Maryland. She is the owner of the only female run Cryptid Museum In the world and she is a wealth of knowledge, into the snallygaster, and it's gonna be a lot of fun. She is, she is in the world of cryptozoology Cryptid con travels and does all this cool stuff, you know, kind of reminiscent of Asher's in a way.

1:46:47 And it's gonna be a lot of fun. And I really do look forward to that and I look forward to presenting that to The Travelers of the infinite rabbit hole before Go. Does anybody else have anything to say to all the people listening in tonight? Come to the group? Yes. Come join us on the Facebook group. We're dropping fire and blown each other's minds without giant tadpoles and six foot and apes and all kinds of craziness. Yeah, definitely check it out. Buy a shirt or become a monthly support or man. Gas prices are crazy and it might drive is a show from the living room. I'm to the offices intense.

1:47:36 Well if nobody else has anything else to say, Grayson again thanks man. Really do appreciate you coming on Jake, Jeff Kender. It's always a pleasure and I can't wait to jump into. I can't say the new season, it's just going to be twenty 22s version of the infinite rabbit hole. Thank you all for sticking with us for so long and next week starts to New Journey. Thank you for meeting us at this point in the infinite rabbit hole. We'll see you next time. Bye. Chrissy, has a bye bye. There it is.