170. Jason Hewlett: NDEs & Ogopogo

0:28 Everyone. Else, welcome back to the Infinite Rabbit Hole podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy, and today we have a special guest in the house. But before we get to anybody of importance, we have to talk to Jake. What's up dude? Thanks man, appreciate the intro. Nothing much. I'm pretty wiped out, so I don't know how good I'm gonna do during this interview, but I'm I'm here for you. Bro I just got off a 12 hour shift he did. Yeah, but I actually work for a living. You don't. You sit in an office. I slave away on airplanes. You knock, knock it off, knock it. Off a little bit of a difference. Anyways, so let's let's quickly touch on what you just said.

1:11 Jeff bailed on us again. Supposedly he's still part of the infinite rabbit hole. We'll see anyways, but we did have somebody that did show up and that was our old boss man of the Paranormal Network, good friend of the Incident rabbit hole author, boss man and legend Jason Hilo. What's up dude? Hey guys. How's it going? What's? Going. I can't believe, like the Paranormal Network, that was like two years ago already, wasn't it? Yeah, Like, wow, I was just thinking about that earlier today, 'cause we, you guys launched your video podcast like I think almost like exactly two years ago. It feels like, if not earlier then you know what I mean? It's like just heading into summer 2022. Something like that.

2:03 It's been a while, It's been a while and we have never been as popular. Which is awesome. Take us back. Anyway, so we have you on today because we just finished up a block on near death experiences and the very first book I used for my research was your book Dying Light So Well. I'm honored, man, that you started with that. Well, yeah, of course, of course, man. Good, good friend. I would I, I trust, I trust your research. I really do. Let's let's just start off with the the easy question. What what?

2:45 What brought you to doing a book on Indies? It was almost so Peter Ren, who he's a good friend of mine and he's the Co founder of our Canadian paranormal society. him and I started that up here in Canada. We're in Canada for those people who don't know where we are right. He and I wrote two previous books. All three published would be on the fray publishing. And when we were doing our second book, which is called I want to believe in investigators archive, our our whole point with that book was to interview a variety of paranormal researchers and cryptozoologists, etcetera, and kind of tell their stories. And one of the people we interviewed, Angela Artuso, was telling kind of her story. And right in the middle of it was this, she had this near death experience, which is actually in this book. It's the man in black chapter in this book. And when we were done, like I called Peter up because it was right in the middle of COVID.

3:38 So we couldn't like do the interviews in person. And most of the people we interviewed didn't live anywhere near us. And like Pete, like we got to do a, a book on the on near death experiences. Like that story was too good to include in the we just get lost in the middle of telling her story. And he's like, yeah, we need to do, do that. Like I know people who have had near death experiences, etcetera. Pete had one of his own. And so I contacted our our publisher and they were like all over it. They're like, yeah, do a book on on near death experiences. And we were contractually had to do another book too. So that felt like just the right thing to do. So it was Angela's story that kicked the whole thing off for us. And then it was like that fall kind of became this deep dive into learning as much as I could about near death 'cause I, I didn't, I'd heard of near death experiences.

4:22 I'd watched that Netflix series. What was it? I can't remember the title of Surviving Death and found it interesting, but I didn't know if I believed it kind of thing. Like it's one just one of those felt like a pop culture thing to me. And so, yeah, but it was really interesting to kind of really dig into it and do a deep dive into the subject matter and learn more about it and, and kind of realize I was kind of wrong in my initial skeptical assessment of of what this this is that people are having happened to them. That's, that's wild because one of the first things that Doctor Jeffrey Long touches on his book is the what, what he refers to as the Oprah effect, because she basically polarized the, the, the topic of near death experiences. And after that, more and more people started coming forward. And then that could either mean one or two things. It could mean that people are, you know, wanting to tell their story and, and they're not so afraid of the ridicule that comes with it because they see how accepting the, the stories are, how interested people are in or they're creating them. So that was one of the, that's one of the big skeptic point of point of point of views on the, on the whole near death experience.

5:34 But sort of like you, I also went into the near death experience. I started off, like I said, reading your book, right? It's something that's been on the, the, the docket for a long time that I was eventually going to cover. And I read your book and I was like, hmm, there's some really interesting stuff. So I got a few books that you referenced in your book because I wanted to see where you got your research from. And I think I bought 3 books and then I bought two more books off of another book I read and then another book off another book I read. And, and now I have seven or eight of them. And the, the farther I went down this rabbit hole, the more I started to really think to myself, I even pulled Jake aside one night and I was like, dude, there's something to this. It's freaking wild.

6:24 And, and I mean, I don't, I don't know, I, I don't get into the spiritual side of a lot of stuff, but this really, really opened my eyes. And I told him and I said, man, I think there's something. I think there's something. Glad it was something I've been telling you about Jesus for four years now. Finally he just starts looking into Ndes and he's just like, there's something else out there. I'm like, yeah, to kind of figure like, well, good, good. Whatever works, man. You know, it's funny them calling it near death experiences. It should be like back from the dead experiences because I mean, I've had a near death death experience. I I almost stepped off a curb, hesitated for a second. A semi truck just blasted through a red light right in front of me.

7:10 Would have just, I would have been done right. But so from my perspective, I've never really put much weight into these Ndes 'cause I'm just like, yeah, who hasn't almost died? I didn't come out of my body when I did it right Type stuff like it wasn't like, you know, some weird hypersense of awareness. But getting into it over the last couple weeks, cause Jeremy talked to me and, and everything saying that he had a complete perspective shift in like a way of living shift because of his research in Ndes that, you know, it really touched him and impacted him. And I was like, for people like having almost having accidents, like, what are you talking about? And so I, I started getting into it and it was pretty wild seeing things like verifiably dead for like an hour and a half type people like flatlined in the ICU. They're like zipping them up in the bag type stuff, right? Transporting them to the morgue and they wake up out of that sort of stuff.

8:10 And having not just the people interviewed, but also the doctors and saying like, you know what the doctors were doing at the time. Or like a kid that that died on the operating table that, you know, not only saw his dad screaming out to God in the closet, but also said, Hey, I met my sister who was from a miscarriage they had had years before and they're not going to tell their four year old son that, you know, oh, you would have had a sister, but she's dead now, right Type stuff. And so getting into that and being like, oh, wow, there's a lot here. And then like, oh man, I should look into this too. You know, it's pretty crazy. Well, there's some like we interviewed a gal. Hang on here, I got to remember her name. La La La La La La.

8:56 Sorry guys, it's been a long time since I actually read my own book. No, you're good. You like we'll, you know, just to tell everybody a little bit about what we'll be talking about tonight. Since he's put out this book, he's basically become Mr. Celebrity and he he worked on a a documentary and book on the legend of local Pogo. So we'll be jumping into that later. That's why he needs a refreshment, just so you know. Thank you for that. Lynn Russell, like Lynn Russell was a researcher and she, she told me like there's, there's people who have been dead for 12 hours who've come back, right? Like they are actually not just being taken to the morgue, they've been in the morgue. Like rigor mortis is set in and then they're waking up. I mean, she, she did research into like more than 1500 cases all over the world. So there, there is something to this, this phenomenon. And and it is like I had the same experience as you, Jeremy, by the time I had finished, like researching the book and it took a long time.

9:52 Bogo Pogo book is the only one that took longer. My perception on the whole death experience has changed a lot, you know, to the point where I'm I there's no doubt that like this isn't the end, Like when you die, that's it's not just black and it's over. Like there's there's things life beyond death for sure. And I agree with yours too, Jake. It should be called the surviving death. Like it's it's people are dead like they are they're not like almost hit by a car or or like, you know, boy getting hit by 25 foot beam falling on them. They are done like they flatlined for even. 30. Seconds, one minute, you know what I mean? They're, they're done. And it, it seems that every year more people are talking about it and coming forward with their stories. And there seems to be everyone that has these experiences is changed by it.

10:41 And they're changed for the better for the most part. There's a few where they're, they're very bad experiences, but for the majority of them, it's a positive. They're, they just view the world differently, life differently. They live freer, they're happier. They all talk about going to a place of peace and love and they're, you know, everything's calm. And that to me was, I thought amazing, Especially in a world where it just seems like there's there's not a lot of that going around right now, right? I think it was Doctor Bruce Grayson. I could be misquoting here. It could have been Jeffrey Long, but one of those two did a whole section on culture, cultural influences, and how an NDE is basically described the same throughout time and culture. You know, we may use different words to describe what we're going through, but if you look at the core of what they're describing, it's basically the same thing. So it's it's absolutely wild that no, it's either just a natural thing, which is another big skeptic point of view on this is that this is just something that our brain does as it's like survival mechanism to to make sure that we're not, you know, freaking out during the biggest thing that'll ever happen to us in life.

11:59 They they even go down to describing how this could be like one last grand finale of electrical works going on in your brain in your memory section. And that's how you get your life review, you know, quote UN quote. But if you look at like Eegs during the time of death there, there's nothing that, that that proves that. Absolutely nothing. In fact, the evidence that we have disproves that. So the fact that we're not going through that, but yet we're still having the same experience through throughout time because we, I mean, we have some, some really far back documentation, I mean, pen and paper going back to the Roman Empire when the printing press was created. You know, we have documentation of Ndes. If you go to places of hieroglyphs like ancient China or Egypt, ancient Mexico, you see some references to Ndes too. And you could still see things such as a tunnel of light gathering with loved ones, all that stuff. It's, it's incredible, absolutely incredible stuff. It is and I, I wanted to get the skeptical point in there. Like I talked to a physicist named Lawrence Ward and he he brought up the same thing, but you know that it's the brain shutting down and everything coming to an end in your body as a way to explain it because they have, we can't measure consciousness once a person's

13:30 like out basically like, so there's an argument about is it your consciousness just shutting down or, or is it more? But I, I like even his, he kind of brings up the point that even if it's, he doesn't believe that in near death experiences are happening, but he still sees it as a positive because it, it, it, there's, there's spirituality to life. Like he doesn't think people are like dead when it's happening, but it's, it's having a positive effect on people. And I think regardless of where you stand on it, that should be the big take away. This is not a, even though you're, we are so scared of death in our society and in our culture, we don't even have funerals anymore. Like, you know what I mean? Like they're called celebrations of life. Like we are avoiding this topic like the plague. But as you said, Jeremy, it is the biggest thing that's gonna happen to us and it happens to everyone. And I think, you know, we need to start looking at it as not this bad thing.

14:25 It's it's a positive thing. It's just the end of one thing. Yeah. Moving on to something else. We gotta start getting glad like doing shows like this that you you're keeping, you're getting that conversation going with people and your listeners are gonna hear it. And hopefully it just starts, gets people changing the way they they view death. We shouldn't view it as this big negative. It's it's it's an inevitability. Yeah. And it's a natural part of the process. And it's not bad. I think that comes with a lot of what's going on in the cultural aspect today and people's beliefs on things. It seems to be a tremendous amount of like rampant narcissism where it's all about me and me getting as much as I want because this is all I have left. And after this, there's nothing. And that puts a lot of fear in people because it's like, well, you know, I'm wasting time because after this there's nothing.

15:09 But then, you know, you, you think about the inevitable end, whenever it might be. I mean, for some of us, it's surrounded by our family members in a hospital bed, you know, or, or in, you know, elderly care or something like that, you know, assisted living, whatever. Some of us is getting slammed by a car on the way to work. It's just, you know, it, it could happen at any time in any number of ways. And if you just wrap it up in your head that this is that's it and nothing's after that, You know, I think, I think that that in itself could be pretty scary because all we know is this.

15:49 All we know is consciousness. All we know is like is I'm here. I'm touching the desk, right? I, I exist and not having this anymore is, is pretty terrifying. But even if it was like if you took the religious aspect out of that and you just said, you know what, you know, some skeptics would say of just like it's your brain's final moments and all that sort of stuff. If that was, I don't believe that's the case as a Christian guy, but if it was, at least we would have that because it wouldn't just be screaming anxiety into nothingness, right? It would be your brain doing its very best to calm you and relax you and ease you into, you know, nothing or whatever, right? Which would be in itself just, you know, I'm gonna use the word miracle.

16:39 But you know, it would be like, Oh well, thank goodness, you know, But yeah, it's, it's definitely an interesting topic. There's definitely a lot of like, I think that the cultural aspect of it too, going past just religious boundaries or, you know, some, I don't know, like, like you might find say, like sleep paralysis. Sleep paralysis seems to change when it comes to different cultures around the world, or at least what they say about it. It like kind of varies somewhat, but this topic seems to have way more parallels than that, which leads me to believe that's more of a real thing.

17:21 Like not just, you know, not saying people don't experience stuff during sleep paralysis, but you know what I'm saying. The thing with the thing. It's consistent. Like it it it's consistent. There is the tunnel of light. There is at the end. There's like at least one loved one or someone that you're familiar with there. There are other beings. There's a sense of peace. There's usually something speaking to you, be it the the figure you see or just this voice talking to you. And there's this feeling of oneness with everything around you. And then there is the life review. Like quite often you go like there's that life review where you can go through it. And what, what's really interesting, like, like they're talking with Scott Taylor, like he's talks about like not only is there this life review, you can see these points where you've impacted people and you feel kind of what they've felt.

18:09 So you've seen the bits where you've been this asshole. And there's also an opportunity to correct that within that moment. Like it's it's, it's, it's, it seems far out there, but more than one person is talking about it. It's not like one wing not having this experience, like you're hearing the hundreds of thousands of these cases that are exactly the same. Yeah, and it's, it's wild because we'll, we'll just stick on the life review for a minute. I, I, I have so many points to go over my head. It's crazy right now. But like the the life review you have, like you said, you're able to see, and this has been reported by a lot of different people. You can see not only your point of view, but the point of view of everybody involved.

18:53 So I think it was who was it it, I want to say it was Raymond Moody, Doctor Raymond Moody who who had this example of the grocery store clerk, right? So you have this new clerk and he's, you know, a little nervous. The first job, you were an asshole to him. You're like, well, you know what, dude, you suck. And, you know, thanks for my cash. You know, you gave me an extra 5. I'm not gonna let you know, fuck you. I'm gonna move on. But then you, when you go to that moment in your life review, you not only get to see that point of view from your point of view, but also from their point of view, from the people watching you's point of view, from, you know, any point of view that you could possibly think of. You're seeing that happen.

19:40 You're seeing how what you did influence that person at that point. And not only at that point for, for, for, you know, how you influenced the rest of their lives. You know, you see how this person, you know, went home and kicked his dog and and you know that dog had. Internal bleeding and ended up passing away and that that guys kid was really sad and grew up and and you know hated life and had issues throughout their lives and all just because of that little thing that happened and you see that you know, sorry about that example. It's kind of brutal, but, you know, just to kind. Of well, it's true, though. Like, yeah, it is a good point to make. And I think it's something like you were saying, like Jake was saying, like we were we're in this narcissistic mindset right now.

20:28 We're talking about me, me, me. And actually, no, it's not. It's how we interact with everyone around us. And everything we do impacts other people. And we need to stop behaving this way. And these things are almost like an awakening for those people that have them. Sorry, Jake. No, it's, it's funny you say that Jeremy, because I've been saying for a while now that I'm not a big coincidence guy. And I believe that there are things like divine meetings and appointments and things like that. Or you're supposed to talk to someone at this point for XY and Z. Maybe, maybe it's that Co worker that you just happened. And this has happened to me, especially when I was in the Navy, actually really like right before I got out. But you know, you just happened to take that extra 5 minutes on a break, even though you're not really supposed to. You happen to see that one Co worker that looks really down and depressed.

21:21 Turns out they're thinking about going home and, and just taking themselves out. And you're able to intervene in that moment, right? You can consider that chance. You could say it's coincidence. You could say it's divine intervention or divine appointments or whatever you want to say. And I like to think that, you know, let's just say like any of those movies where there's like they're hunting the, the killer or whatever it is, and they got all the, the yarn all over the wall and all the pictures and everything. And this links to that and this links to that. I was like, wouldn't it be cool if you got there and God was like, all right, so here's you and here's where you, you ran into this person. You said that one thing and then they branched off over here, you know, and did this sort of thing.

22:02 And I've said that for a couple of years now. It's just like, you know, 'cause you never, you never know, right? You never know what your impact does. You know, you let's just say you try to be the best person you can or the kindest person or whatever it is. You never know if that one pay it forward moment did anything in that person's life or if they carried it over into the next person's life or whatever, right. And so when you said that, Jeremy, in the, in the episode, and I was like, wow, that's kind of sort of what I was just, you know, thinking about. And, and just right here, it's like, how did that moment, that one little blip in our, our timeline impact everything else around us, right? That one person you flipped off on the freeway 'cause you're just like all mad at traffic and stuff. How did that affect that person who might have been having a much worse day than you, right Type stuff or, or vice versa. You know, you, you show kindness to someone that's, you know, needs it at that moment.

23:04 And you'll never know you know. Or at least you think you'll never know. Yeah, there's, there's a lot here. And I'll, I'll, I'll tell the listeners one thing. I'm petrified of death. Like petrified of it. Anybody that knows me in person knows there's two things that literally scare the shit out of me. Death and snakes. I'm gonna hate snakes. Snakes. I definitely snakes. I hate snakes. I'm gonna hide A snake in his sucker. And. A rubber snake. And I'm gonna die anyways. You get it both wrapped up at once. I can't say that this research has made me comfortable with the concept of death, but it at least makes me think of it in a different light.

23:50 You know, I like when I say that I'm petrified to death. I mean, I've spent multiple nights in my life laying in bed thinking about oblivion. You know, the what is it going to be like when I'm gone, you know, kind of stuff. And I mean, I, I suffer myself. I suffer from stress or depression, anxiety and PTSD, and those nights where I'm laying in bed thinking about this stuff does not help whatsoever. And I've done this numerous times throughout my life, from when I was a kid all the way up until the current day. But this topic alone has really done a lot to help me. It's, it's, it's funny, 'cause like I'll lay in bed now and I'll, you know, I'll get, get in my fields and, and start thinking about that.

24:49 I don't know why I do it, how I do it, or you know, what triggers it, but it just happens. And I will grab my phone and I'll look up NDE experiences and I'll just read through people's experiences and you just start seeing the consistencies through them. I mean, every once in a while you get one that's like way out of left field and you're like, OK, well, skip, let me go to the next one. And then you look, you start seeing the consistencies and then you start seeing that, you know, you start feeling like, man, maybe there is something after this. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm so stressed out about nothing. And it's it's a it's a nice therapy. And I guess that's where I'm trying to get to is that this, this subject alone was a really nice therapy for me. And it gave me a tool that I could use. So like I told, like I told Jake, like there has never been a subject that has touched me or changed me so much like this subject.

25:46 I love this subject. And I I told the the travellers, I don't know what episode I did it on as as of right now, at this point during recording, we all on dropped part one, Part 2 will be coming out next. But by the time you get this recording, both of that have been dropped out. So forgive me whichever one it was, but I could very well see in a part three, possibly a part 4 coming out of of narrative experiences at some point. And that was all kicked off thanks to Jason's book. So thanks, Jason. Well, you're very welcome. I'm glad I, I look at the book 'cause it was an introduction to me. It's almost more of an introduction to the subject matter. I think hopefully for people like it's a good way to kind of kind of get into it and then want to ask those questions and read more 'cause that's kind of what by the time I was done, like it's one I'd, I'd eventually like to write a follow up to 'cause there is so much, I feel like I just kind of scratch the surface with a few like anecdotal stories and you know, the little bit of skepticism. And then like we talking to Jolene, who did like she was the trauma counselor to talk about why we feel it's important to believe that there's more.

26:47 Right? Like there's so much here. And it is such AI think it can be, it can be a spiritual topic for people who aren't spiritual. Like I think it can kind of, you know, they may not be like religious, but it, there's, there's AI think it can introduce them to the concept of even just spirituality in general. And I think that to me is really important 'cause we need something. Everyone needs that kind of in there. Like I too, Jeremy, I've got depression, anxiety, PTSD, you know, and you need something more to kind of hang on to than just reality sometimes, right? Like I, I too was terrified of the subject. I think what scared me more 'cause I, my dad died when I was young. So I was kind of being introduced to it far younger than a lot of people were.

27:29 And then what scares me now is the is like that happening, like me dying and then 'cause I saw what it did to my mom and it did to me. Like, so having that happen to my wife and to my kid and I don't want to put them through that. And that's almost what scares me more right than anything else. Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's a tough subject. And it's a subject that, like I said earlier, we we don't, we tend to tap dance around. Yeah. I think, I think Jeremy might tick some people off. I don't really care. I tend to do that anyway. But I think given the evidence of through NDE research, really digging into it, seeing like what Jason was talking about 12 hours dead, like like rigor mortis frozen in the morgue type stuff and waking up. If you actually start digging into it and you really get into evidence of it and not just like someone said this is what happened to them, but there's, you know, medical reviews done by it, There's interviews with the doctors. They're confirming it.

28:30 They're confirming what the person said they saw. You know, how would they know that sort of stuff? You know, they were in the deepest coma we could put them in while they're we're doing this brain surgery on them because of an aneurysm, right type stuff. Like there's no way they would know this sort of stuff. I think you'd be, you'd have to be a complete and utter fool if you could look at that sort of stuff and be like, yeah, there. It's all, it's all baloney. Yeah. No, exactly. There's, there's, yeah. I mean, it's just. Evidence there. It's not anecdal. Anecdotal evidence. There's hard evidence. And it's, and it, like we said in the very beginning, it's not just Western society. It's not just, you know, the Indians, it's not just the Hindus, the, you know, it's not just the Buddhists.

29:12 It's not just, you know, the Christians or whatever it is. It's, it's just parallels, pretty much the same story all the way through, all around the world, every single continent, people are experiencing the same thing. And if you could look at that and just be like rubbish, be like, well, you might be an idiot. I I was surprised too how the the the reincarnation bit played into it too. And that was kind of just a something that was thrown my way when I was lining up interviews. But it was interesting how that there's sort of enough evidence there too that people are coming across to support that people have kind of done this before in in some way, shape or form.

29:55 I found that kind of fascinating. And it kind of get then gets you thinking about the whole concept of timelines and string theory and time is actually a flat circle and not like, you know, a chronological series of events. Yeah. And I found that kind of threw me for a loop that that kind of ended up in there. But it did just sort of worked as part of the narrative of these experiences that people are having, because there's, there's a lot of talk, like I know Scott Taylor talked about it and so did betting out some bugging the kid when they're talking about the, the reincarnation bit. But it all of this exists on a kind of a different frequency. These all these different kind of possibilities. And people are talking about being able to like through meditation vibrate. I, I don't, I don't know, that seems far out there. But if we're talking about living after death, that you can kind of almost vibrate to these different planes of existence that fit within that like energy. It's all, we're all made of energy. And so it's playing around with that energy where you can see a look at like a past life or even go to that place where you go when you have these, these death experiences. I don't know, I, I, I found that to be kind of mind blowing a bit too and, and not out of the realm of belief or possibility. I don't know.

31:03 What did you think, Jeremy, when you kind of read that stuff? So I, I, in my presentations, I touched slightly, like very slightly. I, I mentioned reincarnation, but that's like when I say that I'm, there's a third and 4th episode here eventually that is something. But I did, however, talk about multiple timelines and how. And actually, I think I want to say that I quoted you in your book about Deja Vu, about potentially being an answer Deja Vu. Because if you go back to a little while ago when we were talking about the life review, there was a there was a concept that I that we missed on that we haven't talked touched on yet today.

31:44 And that is seeing it in different play outs, like going down different paths. So instead of yelling at that, that new kid, you were kind to him and you said, hey man, thanks. You're going to do great, right? And you walked up and, and none of that bad shit happened. And in fact that that kid went to, you know, that he took that confidence that you gave him and, and just became an all around All Star in the grocery store, which gave him the the juice he needed to become ACEO one day or an entrepreneur. You know, and it's, it's that kind of stuff where how, if, if you're, if you're having your life review, how do you have that? How is that existing?

32:33 How, how is there a record of how that could, how that turned out? And that's when you get into timeline conversations and you get into the multiverses and parallel worlds and the potential for how Deja Vu exists in our life, you know, because at some point, you know, and, and we're kind of getting a little bit off topic here, but when timelines line up slightly or temporarily is, you know, when they say or not, not they, because there's a lot of different ways to, to explain Deja Vu. But one of the explanations is that timelines line up and you, you feel like you, you've lived it before, where in fact you're just viewing it twice. You're viewing it from your timeline in another person's timeline.

33:24 And the simple fact that when people go and have these life reviews, they're, they're seeing it from not just different perspectives, but from different perspectives across a different timeline. And it, it's very interesting. Like I like when I say I've got another three, I got episode three and four, like ready to roll, man. I've got more stuff I can talk about. So eventually it's gonna happen. Travelers just need to I need to spend some time on some other subjects. I can't spend too long. Coming back to it. I will. Yeah, I will, in fact. Wrapped up in other stuff. Oh, I'm right now I'm I'm wrapped up in Elmwood. That's my number one priority.

34:07 And that's kinda to to be honest. Everybody listening right now. You guys wanna hear why I, I didn't do a part three and part 4 together with this? Yeah, you can blame CJ and Jeff. Those douche bags, they they bailed out. They're just affecting your timeline. They did. They're just bailing on you. They bailed out. Can it cause your career to plummet? And I'm. Gonna see in their life review. This is why Jeremy became homeless. They, they were supposed to come out with two episodes for me and both of them bailed and said that they couldn't do it. So I had to, I had to throw out some NDE stuff before it was really ready because honestly, I was, I was building up episodes three, episode 3 for sure. And then I was going to probably scrounge together an episode 4 on just the loose ends.

34:58 But yeah, no great stuff. I don't want to spend too much longer on this Jason, because I want to get into the rest of the stuff, the other stuff. Whatever, man, whatever you want to do. I mean, we could talk, like you say, Ndes for like hours. Again, there's so much material to it. Yeah, yeah, it's incredible. It's incredible. And you know, another thing that I didn't get to talk about during these two episodes of the Ndes was to get more into the medical side of it, like the actual science research, the scientific research and stuff like you had mentioned in your book. I can't remember the name of the researcher, but they, Doctor Bruce Grayson invented the Grayson scale and someone, someone created a way to modernize that.

35:45 And the, the issue with the Grayson scale is that it's a multiple choice thing, right? So you can create false memories in somebody or give somebody the tools to create a false memory by giving them the options to choose from. Where in your book you highlighted somebody else's experiment or research, where instead of giving them that, they gave them a blank piece of paper and they said write down your research, write down your NDE. And then they fed that information into AI and AI. The AI was able to pick out all the patterns and guess what? Commonality of words. There's Andrea Sodu, Dr. Andrea Sodu. Yeah.

36:28 And he, they the commonality of words. And that's where like, like the, I can't remember the exact percentage, but it was like, you know, 75 or 80% positive experiences, right? Like, you know, light, love, all these words. They'd look at the common words that would come up in all of them. It was fascinating. Even he knew someone, a paramedic friend of his that electrocuted himself and it had a near death experience as well and came back and shared that with him too. And that was plot. And he he so does an incredible story setting these this being a real thing. Yeah, and and not only, you know, are you seeing these commonalities with terminologies, right? Because to kind of clear up a little bit on his, on his research was, you know, they may not always say tunnel, they, they can say words like hallway Rd. path, right? But you know, where other people may separate those, those titles, it could just be the way that they're describing the same thing.

37:23 So this AI was able to clump those together and say, OK, out of all of these, 75% of them described some, some pathway that you go, go on. But another interesting thing is that in my research or in my first episode I believe it was, we talked, I talked about 9 characteristics or 12 characteristics, sorry, that all Ndes seem to have at least one of. And that was outlined by Doctor Jeffrey Long in his book Evidence of the Afterlife. Very, very good book. But you see the parallels between what you pointed out with Doctor Soto, you said Yep, with Doctor Soto's research. Still the same elements that I that I pointed out from Doctor Long in episode one of Ndes is still being reflected, such as the life review, the the pathway, the the out of body experience, the increase of your senses. You know, more powerful senses, the immediate knowledge of things.

38:36 But I'll, I'll, you know, all of them. I, I, I can't damn them all off the top of my head. But yeah, absolutely incredible stuff. Oh yeah. But. Coming forward different too, that's the other part. That's very consistent as everybody comes back different. That was his 12th point, was that you come back most of the time. It is a very, very positive influence on your life. So yeah, very, very good stuff. Do you have anything else you want to talk about tonight about ND ES? I, I think like, like, I mean, like you said, we could go into it. I think the, the only other one that really stands out for me other than like Angela's sort of man in black story is the Scott Taylor's where he was. He didn't die, but someone else did and he got taken along for that journey.

39:18 I thought that was, that was more unique. I think it's more. Of a rarity, the shared experience. The shared death experience, that one I thought was interesting. That's another one that I, that I left out of my my first two episodes that CJ and Jeff robbed everybody of was that I was gonna get into. Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna blame it all on them. All of it. You hear this, scumbags? It's all your fault. No, I, I love them. They I I've I'm happy to cover. But yeah, every hero needs an an the Nemesis. That's right. It's just otherwise, what's the point? Right. So. Mine is CJ and Jeff.

39:58 Right now it's them. Yes. Yeah, No, absolutely. Jason, we might have to get you back on at some point, especially after I end up dropping part three and part 4. Sure, that way we can continue this conversation, but until then? We are reread my book beforehand off the top my. Hey man, Jeremy, I feel blindsided here. This is gonna go down in my life review. You better. If you're gonna have me on this episode, I don't say, hey, this is about Ndes. Say hey, this is about Jason's book that he wrote about Ndes. So I can at least be well versed in that. I mean, if you listen to my episodes, I quoted Jason quite a bit in those episodes. Yeah, that was today.

40:44 You know what? I don't even know how to read. Like I have to wait for the audiobook to come out and all that. You're lucky you can just put it on and listen to it at work. I'll listen to it at well, doing my job, and then I'll actually have something to say about what he wrote. Every hero needs a nemesis. I don't know, I heard that. I heard that somewhere. But since we are doing this on YouTube, here's the book. It's called Dying Light by Jason Hewlett and his buddy Peter Wren. So by all means, go ahead and check that out. Jason, you have anything that you want to put out about this book really quick before we move on? Nope. That I think we we know. We touched on all we can at this point. All.

41:24 Right. Well, one that I did not do research on to because the book isn't out yet and neither is the documentary. You are getting into the world of the cryptids, especially in up there in the great White N Specifically one that Jake and I had covered with our good friend, mutual friend, Phantom Fill. Ogo Ogo, you are. You are diving deep into the waters of Lake Okanagan, Okanagan, Okanagan. Okanagan. Okanagan, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So bring us into that How? How'd you get that? Well, that started, I started researching a book on Ogo Pogo. It was like early, early last year, so early 2023, just 'cause I, I've, I live like 2 hours away from Kelowna, right? I've been there, I've seen the statue, I've heard the stories my whole life.

42:14 I wanted to kind of write a book about it then it was originally going to be for Beyond the Fray because I had one more book to write in the contract thing. And this is a great subject and Pete wasn't really interested in doing it. So I was like, I'll do it by myself because I why not? And then literally like a week after I started researching the book, I was talking with Eli Watson, of course, with Small Town Monsters. And at the time he was doing a show called Mysteries and Monsters. And he's like, we're all coming up to Canada because we're going to do on the betrayal of Bigfoot, the origin out of Harrison Hot Springs, which is kind of really where the Sasquatch story started with John Green's research, etcetera. And and he's like Seth, Seth Breedlove is going to give me a few days. I can go off and kind of do whatever I want. He's like, I want to do something on Ogo Pogo, do you want to help out?

42:57 And I didn't even think about it. I'm like, yes, I said, because I'm writing this book. So it's like if there's like you said, Jake, there are no coincidences. Like I've started writing a book about Ogo Pogo. Someone comes up and wants to do something on Ogo Pogo so. Sure. That happened in May of last year. Eli and I spent like 2 1/2 days in Kelowna doing this documentary that we thought was just going to be a YouTube episode of the time. And I continued writing my book and I ended up being interviewed for On the Trail of Bigfoot, the origin with that too. So I got to know the small town monsters folks and the book wrapped up. I finished writing it in like October and Eli and I were talking. I'm like, Eli the book has become like, it's not this just a bunch of different stories about Ogo Pogo. Like it's become a whole. It's something else completely. And it's something I don't think beyond the phrase going to be into.

43:42 And Eli is like, yeah, we should talk to Seth about it because they have their publishing arm. Long story short, I was able to get out of this beyond the freight contract and Small Town Monsters picked up the book. And so they decided that instead of that being a YouTube episode, they were going to make it one of their feature length documentaries, which is now called Cursed Waters, Creature of Lake Okanogan. And the book is coming out called Legend The Legend of Ogo Pogo, Canada's Loch Ness Monster, and both drop at Monster Fest in Canton, OH at the end of the month. That's phenomenal. Good. Stuff, yeah. And I, I, I've never had dreamt that that would even remotely play out in any way, shape or form like this. Especially I've been a like, I've got a film background. I love small town monsters. I think they do kind of the best, like, Cryptid paranormal documentaries out there. And so to be able to have something I've done be a part of that.

44:29 And, you know, and Eli directed Kirst Waters, but I helped film it. I did a lot of the interviews. I'm interviewed for it. You know, I was with him through the whole process of making it, basically. And, you know, he was very gracious to kind of really push for that, you know, things to happen. And Seth really liked the idea and was excited about it. And. Yeah. Man, I'll tell you when I started Infinite Rabbit Hole, there was three big names on the list that I eventually wanted to have on the show. Like sometime down the road, 1015 years down the road that, you know, even today I look out and I'm like, those names are just too big. They'll never come on right? One of them, Seth Breedlove, I I love his stuff. What he's done with small town monsters is incredible. And anybody who is into cryptids or they've even done UFO stuff too with small town.

45:21 Monsters. UFO stuff. Yeah, yeah. Dog man. Like they're kind of touching on all that. You know they just impaired Mothman. Was part of the Aaron Aaron Deese, right? Just just did the, the, the the the dog man's he he basically did a good same concept as you. They put out a a documentary in a book, didn't they? Yeah, Texas dog man triangle. Yeah, yeah, same kind of thing. And then his second book, Hunting Grounds, is all about the LBL, like the Land between the Lakes there. He did just that book just came out, and that documentary's coming out pretty quick too, I think. Yeah, but Seth Breedlove is what he's done with Small Town Monsters and that whole crew, Shannon McGraw and and the bunch are just it it's it changed the entire landscape of Cryptid research.

46:15 Because a lot of people may not know this, but if you go and you look at a documentary that has any kind of solid production value to it, it's Small Town Monsters. Oh yeah, yeah. And I mean, their, their stuff is on, I believe it's on Amazon. You can, you can rent it on Amazon mostly. And their stuff is incredible, the research. It's they're really good and it was neat to meet them all because they're really good people too. Like, you know, someone was like you don't want to meet your heroes kind of thing in respect, but it wasn't they're all great. Like they're they're all all really good. And yeah, no, Seth is amazing. And you should reach out like to Seth because I'm sure he'd come on. He's always willing to talk.

46:56 I would, I would love to, I would love to and another one of another one of the people that I've always wanted to to interview with Shannon McGraw. And I end up going on her show to tell her about my Bigfoot experience. And I got cold feet. I wanted to ask her to come on the show. I wanted to ask her and I got. She'll do it too, like I guarantee you. Like she sounds awesome. Like. So I ended up emailing her and I could only imagine the amount of of e-mail she has on her inbox. Probably just got lost amongst everything else. But yeah, so anybody listening to this, yeah, I'm a loser. And I, I didn't get emailed back by Sham McGraw, so whatever. Anyways.

47:38 And then just to just to fill in that whole thing. The third one is Lauren Coleman. I would love to get him on show one day too. That. 'D be awesome. I've, Yeah, I've never met Lauren or had the chance to even to talk to him. And #4. Maybe I will. Number four was Jason Hewlett. And here it is my hero. So I mean, can you can you talk about the the documentary in the book? And you kind of, yeah. I can a bit like it's So what we like, I mean the documentary in the book kind of take a look. They it starts looking at things from kind of the historical perspective and the stories that everybody knows about Ogo Pogo, right?

48:19 And it is one of the most documented like lake monsters out there. I think in some ways even more so than than Messi, because look with Nessie, it's like one person usually seeing it, but there's bits worth Ogo Pogo. There's like a dozen people have seen it all at the same time, right. But what's interesting is that Ogo Pogo itself is a made-up word. It's actually, I'm going to really butcher it, but it's like it's Nahayitsu from the West Bank First Nations. And for them it is literally it's a water spirit. It is the spirit of the lake. And it's a very important part of their culture. And what always happens is US white people come in and take it and misconstrue it and make it into something that it's not. So Ogopogo, the word came up in in like the Vernon dance halls in like the 1920s or 30s, right?

49:09 And that they made the word up talking about this silly creature in the water that plays the banjo. And that word actually stuck. And it's become this big tourism mascot for Kelowna and the Okanagan region. So there's the documentary kind of becomes about that. There's two parts to it. There's this this real, serious, legitimate water spirit that's a part of indigenous culture. And then there's this kind of derpy cartoon character, but that also people seem to think that you have to give sacrifices to or it'll eat you if you go in the water, right. And so it's a lot of the the documentary in the book become a lot about these two different things and in a way trying to explain what it could really be. And so there's like, you know, in in the book, I talked to Ken Gearhard, you know, and Steve calls about from a more cryptozoology standpoint.

49:56 But then there's also this very spiritual component to it. That's more than that. Yeah. And there's even a bit of a conservationist message that comes into it too, because if this spirit is like this Fogo Pogo or Taiitu is, is the lake, you've got to preserve the lake and keep it clean and pure. You know, like it's. So there's a lot. That's what I mean. It became it was more than just a monster is what the Ogo Pogo story is. Lake Okanagan is in a basin, right? Isn't it? Well, it is a glacial lake. It's, it's long, narrow, and it and Loch Ness are almost within like just a couple of geographical points apart if you look at it on the globe. And so it, these lakes and most of the lakes where people have these sightings all over the world are the same.

50:39 They're kind of the same kind of lake, long, narrow, very deep. A lot of salmonoid fish in it. Temperatures are very consistent and despite what people see when it comes to like Nasi with the playasaur, which was like that, that was a, that was a scam that that's like that was a fake. It's not it, it's a very much as long Serpentine creature. So is Nasi supposed to be with like a, a kind of a forked tail, like a whale's tail and like a head, like a horse sort of thing? And these, you know, champs very much the same, you know, so it's it's a very different there's consistence enough that you from scientifically, you could say it's all what we're seeing is the same species just spread out across the globe.

51:22 I know with Loch Ness, gosh, I want to say it was maybe 20/12/20 sixteens, maybe 2016. They did the Edna, the environmental DNA on it. Do you know in the IT came up inconclusive for anything with the exception of a few species of fish and eels, although sightings continue to happen. I was just listening to a listening to an episode recently with Paige daily. She's the gosh, she runs the registrar for documented sightings of Loch Ness or Loch Ness Monster, rather. Do you know if there's anything in the works or has there been anything done to do the same sort of study in Lake Okanagan? Not in terms of the E Ed and a sort of test. That'd be really cool.

52:17 Well, there's a gentleman named Bill Stasiak who runs it like it's like Ogo pogoquest.com and he's you go to that website man, and it's like got everything you need to know about Ogo Pogo right down to sightings. People can submit their sightings to the website, right. And he, he actually, we had got to go out with with Bill to Rattlesnake Island, which is where Ogo Pogo is said to live in this cave system kind of beneath it and where a lot of the sightings take place near squally Point. And that was pretty cool to go out there and actually be in that spot. And you know, you're like, you're like 15 feet from shore and it's like 200 feet deep. Like once you're on that lake, you like, I was like, well, lake monster. How can something lived a limited body of water.

52:58 There's no way your perception changes when you're out on it, when you're out on that lake and you see how deep it is so quick and things like that. It it's really. Interesting drops. Off on right and there's a very much a belief that a lot of the lakes in British Columbia are are interconnected through tunnel systems that people postulate that, you know, whatever Ogo Pogo is can move from lake to lake and even follow like the river through the Columbia River out to the ocean and, you know, kind of make its way back. And of course, off the coast of British Columbia, we've got the Cadburrosaurus, which looks very similar to what people describe what Pogo could be. So there's a lot more to the story than this funny creature that's on postcards and T-shirts and hats, right?

53:39 Like it's, it's a, it's a fascinating thing. And much like with Dying Light, I went into this doing the Dogo Pogo stuff with one idea. And I came out of it with something completely different perspective on it, which I don't really want to say here because I hope people will will watch Chris Waterson read the book to kind of see where I went with that. But it was and I, I think my, I can't even call the conclusion. It's just one possibility Will will like irk people about what what's going on in Lake Okanogan. Well, there goes my second question. Without getting too deep into it, I, I suppose, or say what you can, I think something that really strikes us here when we do our episodes on specific cryptids and stuff is when like you were alluding to or you, you said right at the beginning of this that the Native Americans now, I don't know if what you meant was that they, that they had, they saw sightings of a real, of an animal and determined. Because a lot of those native people had just stories for like the existence and how the sun travels across the, the sky and all sorts of stuff.

54:54 And everything had some sort of like a, a spiritual aspect to it and stuff like that. If it was an animal that they were viewing and seeing and then they gave a spiritual sort of way to describe it, or if it was just, you know, I guess the lake for them was living in a way. But when we talk about a specific Cryptid, it really helps that believability of that Cryptid existing. If there was a native tribe in the area that also talked about that, though, they use their own language and their own ways to describe it. You know, whatever they called it, like Bigfoot, say like the the Big Brother or something like that, right?

55:35 But they had parallel stories as what we'd see in modern times. Is that, is that something that for you when you're going into this, when you found out that there was, you know, the native people at least referred to this lake in this manner that that might have kind of opened up a door where it was just like, oh, maybe there is something to this versus just like you were saying, some funny cartoon character on T-shirts and hats. Definitely, definitely like that, that fact. And for them, they very much like it's it is the lake, but it can choose to take a physical form. And that's what people see when they see it. So that's how they view it, right? Because, yeah, there's, there's a lot like, you know, indigenous people will say, like, you know, the crow has a spirit side to it and everything like that. But they definitely feel the same with them with Bigfoot. They call it Stranadum in their culture. It is a, a, a, a forest spirit in a guardian of the forests in the mountains.

56:26 And it will choose to take a physical form to present itself to you when it wants to. And so that's why you know what she says when people try to take pictures of these things, it's always blurry because suddenly it's showing up and you're like, holy shit, like what's, you know what I mean? It always takes you by surprise. And she's sort of like, if, if you see it, you're lucky, don't waste time. Like, why do you got to take a picture of it? If you've seen it, it's special. That should be enough. If you've seen the something that is like beyond our world, it, it should be enough, but it's never enough. We want to validate our experiences. But I, I, that kind of for me is like a paranormal investigator. It's like we always poo poo the personal experience because you can't show it to somebody. But honestly, if you've seen something that blows your mind like Jeremy with Bigfoot, isn't that enough? Like shouldn't that be enough?

57:11 Like who gives a fuck what anybody else thinks? Well, that's why I fucking believe it. Like, and I, I think that's it. I mean, you could say that for any religious, spiritual thing, it shouldn't matter what other people think. If it, like, if it had an impact on you, it's, it's meaningful. That's enough. So, are you familiar with the the classification systems of sea serpents and lake monsters? I, I'm aware of it. I couldn't like go and start rattling it off at the top of my head or how it works or you know. I was I was trying to look it up and I can't seem to find it. I know it's in one of these books over here, but like there, there's like four of them, right? There's the Bernard Hay way woman came up with his own.

57:53 And then the two that I remember is the champagne and the Coleman Hugh, I want to say I left feel I could be completely wrong. I could be pronouncing it completely wrong. The the Mangia Cobra or Mangia Cobra classification system for anybody that's interested in the classification of sea serpents and lake monsters. I highly recommend looking these up and you'll kind of see more what Jason was talking about when it comes to either the physical or spiritual aspect of Ogopogo. And when you see things such as, you know, like the, the common plesiosaur description of Loch Ness right there, there's a, there's these classification systems. I think I want to say that the, the most recent one that everyone uses now is the Coleman Hugh. Could be, could be wrong about that. I I, I want to say way woman had the first one and then champagne and Coleman Hugh as the one that we're using now. But basically like we just did a, an episode on on Pepe the the monster lake Pepin, which is right down the road from us. And I want to say that it falls it it's also it's a Serpentine type water monster.

59:16 And, and like how you were saying there's like this geographical area, latitude, longitude, sorry, longitude around the, the planet, especially in the northern hemisphere. There are, and it's, it's funny because it does mirror in the Southern hemisphere, especially when you get down like Patagonia and Australia and Africa, right? But there's just not so much land mass down there. So it's not as prevalent or it's not as known. But when you look at these, these, these longitudes, all that make a ring around the northern hemisphere of of the planet, you get these different water monsters and a lot of them are grouped into, you know, well, there there's the classifications, right? The big three are your, I want to say the the the water horse. Which is the one where you know it has the long snout it'd be it'd be your Cadbury source, right? Caddy would be a a perfect example of a water horse. It has that long snout.

1:00:25 Some people say Nessie also has that snout. And then there's the the plesiosaur type water monster, which is what most people know Nessie to be. And then some people claim Pepe is also one of those. And then you have the serpent, the long Serpentine one. And those are the big three. And of course there's other ones that are kind of awkward and weird, like elongated Stingrays. And and then they, they take those, the water horse ones and they separate them in two separate categories, one with humped backs and one with a, a flat back. So anybody listening that's more that's interested in the classification systems and, and want to learn more about the water monsters around the world. I know Weiwelman has one champagne and the Coleman Hugh start there and then there may be a new one. I don't know.

1:01:21 It seems like they come up with a new one every 10 years. So. Things evolve all the time, right? The the study into all these keeps changing, so you got to update your systems accordingly I think. Yeah, and I think that's exactly what what happens. But yeah, what else you got for me, boss man? That's that's really it. I mean, I've started working on a Wendigo book right now. So that's, that's kind of interesting spent time up in in, you know, northern Alberta, because that's where the story began with the swift runner story. So just just started working on that and we'll see what happens. But right now, like it's really coming down to getting geared up for heading to Monster Fest and and all that stuff with the Ogopo, like with Cursed Waters and Legend of Ogopogo.

1:02:04 So it's been kind of a whirlwind, exciting time. Well, if you ever find yourself in Wendigo Lakes, Minnesota, let Jake and I know we'll absolutely, we'll go take a trip man 'cause we're we're right next to Minnesota. I know Chad Lewis does a lot of research up there and I think I want to say he did a book on the Wendigo as well. He did a a very good book on the Wendigo. He did it. With Chad knows a lot and even he's done some YouTube stuff about it as well. Like he he actually I revisited some of the places that he visited when he came up here to work on his window Wendigo book. So it's such a Seminole modern piece on the story. 11 can't help it. Fun story. To go story, fun to go story totally ruined a bunch of cool artwork that I used to like in movies and stuff.

1:02:50 I actually saw a tattoo recently of some like deer monster that someone got. It was a really cool tattoo and they were like, oh, it was from the shop. They're like #Wendigo. I was like, too bad. It's just a pop culture thing and has nothing to do with Wendigo whatsoever, you know? I was like, cool tattoo though, yeah. Yeah, it's there's it's a that's an interesting story, the Wendigo like the the folklore behind it and just how so it's bled and not only into pop culture, like you say, Jake, but just how yeah, just how there's still modern stuff that you can associate with it. That's happened within the last twenty. I've even just learned the other day about a sighting allegedly near where I live. So I got to look into that and try to add that to the book because I'd I'd love them to go out and investigate. Oh yeah?

1:03:33 Well, I can tell you one thing, anybody listening, if you guys wanna have an argument about a, a creature or a or a spirit, find a Wendigo page or a crypted page and and start telling people that that what they're seeing isn't actually the the Wendigo and that it's actually just more or less like a frozen zombie or a frozen zombie spirit. And people will lose their fucking minds. Yes they will. But when you have Native Americans backing you up saying I don't know where they're getting this deer head idea, it's. Like. Yes, like various various tribes, they all have their own ideas, but it has nothing to do with deer. But but you need to touch on that though. You need to touch on the.

1:04:13 The Stag. Headed It's part of the lore now. Yeah. Fun, fun fact about Chad Lewis, he actually graduated from the college right here in town from Wisconsin Stout, same town that Jake and I live in now. Sweet, I did not know that. Yeah, so I've been, I've reached out to him. Another person hasn't answered my emails. He's, he's a, yeah, I've, I've just once chatted with him briefly through Messenger, but he's a hard guy to get a hold of and, and I think just 'cause he's so busy, he doesn't always get back yeah, you know, as quick as he would like so. He he, he's a stud. He's, he's all over the place. I love him. All right, boss man, where can they find all of your stuff? Oh, and your other podcast, you want to you want to plug that real quick?

1:05:03 Yeah, that's just, it's a, it's a show I do with Jolene who I referenced like I, I, that's How I Met Jolene is researching Dying Light and which it's a mental health podcast. Like it has really nothing to do with. We touch on spiritual stuff sometimes for sure, but it's literally she's like a grief and trauma counselor, you know, but I've had my experiences. So it's kind of like touching on mental health subjects from like the average Joe's perspective and then the counselor's perspective and then bouncing ideas off each other. And that's called integrateness. And you can listen to that at into greatness.com. Check it out. The books might might be on the fray. Books are available through Beyond the fray publishing and and on Amazon and Cursed Waters will be out. We'll debuts at Monster fest via small town monsters and the book legend of Ogo Pogo comes out through small town monsters publishing.

1:05:49 You want to keep up with me? I'm on Facebook and Instagram. You're going to be, you're going to be at Monster Fest this year. I am, yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm going to be a guest there. I'm I'm guess I'll be talk in the book and maybe it'll be part of the Q&A for Cursed Waters. I'll, I'll find out. I don't know much yet. I just know I'm going. I'm going to be there. We're going to roll out yet, but I'll be there. We're going to have to keep our ears to the ground. Maybe Jake and I will take a trip out to Monster Fest 3 next year. That'd be cool. It's I didn't get to go last year, so I was really bummed out about that. But I'm really excited to be it was well, once, once everything came together, it's like there's no way I can't be there. Yeah, it was a huge success too. Man, That was a big thing last. Year. I'm really excited about it so feels like I could retire now happily. Jake, you got anything else, bud? No, thanks for coming on.

1:06:38 I appreciate it. Sorry that Jeremy didn't let me know we were talking about a specific book that you wrote. I did say we were talking about Ndes and Ogapogo. OK, I guess I didn't mention the book. I apologize. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What an asshole that. Whole nemesis thing, right? Yeah, that's right. He's going to be the reason why I go to coast to coast and leave in for rabbit hole it all. Happened right here, folks. Jake. Just mentioned the Coast to Coast radio. I would follow you. I would follow. You. No. I'll tell him that you suck, that you you withhold information. Don't trust him.

1:07:20 All right, moving on. All right, Well, that has been another episode of the Infinite Rabbit Hole podcast. Jason, one more time, thank you very much for coming on again. It's always a pleasure. Pleasure, my friend, Really well. Thank you so much for having me on guys. I I always enjoyed it well as well. It was so good to catch up because it it had been a while. Yeah, man, make sure it's not not so long away next time. Absolutely. All right, well, until next time, travellers, I'll see you in the next fork in the path of the infinite rabbit hole. Bye. No, nobody else is going to say goodbye. Say goodbye, guys. Bye. There we go. No. Way I do. I would like to thank you once again for tuning into the Infinite Rabbit Hole podcast. Please make sure to give us a follow in one of those beautiful five star ratings on your podcast player of choice. If you would like to join the conversation and stay up to date on all things Infinite Rabbit Hole, head on over to Facebook and search for the Infinite Rabbit Hole Facebook group. You'll know it's us when you see the logo. If you would like to help contribute to the 'cause there are a few ways to do so.

1:08:29 First, head on over to anchor dot FM forward slash Infinite Rabbit Hole and click on the subscribe button where for $5.00 a month you'll get access to all our old episodes that will never see the free spotlight ever again. It's horrible stuff, but if you're into that kind of thing, go check that second. Head on over to infiniterabbithole.com and click on the IRH Merch shop tab and grab yourself a sweet T-shirt sticker or whatever else you see that you wouldn't mind on. Until next time, travelers. I'm Jeremy, and I'll see you at the next fork in the path of the infinite rabbit hole. Future Past higher To this point in time, somewhere in the past, the timeline spewed into this gadget, creating an alternate 1985.

1:09:28 Alternate few near Einstein. Frontier. Reality for everyone else.